why isn't there more help for farmers?

[TheFarmerWantsAWife]

I'll try not to drip feed - OH and I are full time farmers, working from his dads farm, (self employed, not paid a wage if that makes any difference)

We have obviously both grown up in the village but moved away together as nowhere is available to buy/rent anywhere near the farm so its a half hour commute to and from the farm every morning/night, we foolishly thought it would be do-able for the commute.

His dad has slowed down a bit on the farming side due to age/ill health which has meant OH has had to effectively take over the running of the livestock (which are all still in his dads name)aswell as our own livestock and the other farming duties such as hay making, silaging, fencing and general upkeep and maintenance, which means OH is spending more time at the farm or in the village where the livestock are kept and I get there as soon as I can after school runs etc.

Since the demand has increased OH is finding it increasingly difficult to travel and be away from the farm, he has often had to rely on surrounding neighbours to keep him informed of any problems with the farm which has meant OH has to leave sometimes at 2/3am in the morning to attend to sick or calving/lambing animals, I can't even go with him to help due to children being in bed, which has meant he doesn't always get there in time or he has complaints from the neighbours with regards to waking them up in the middle of the night by starting the car and leaving!

The problem is there is nowhere suitable in our price range to buy, not even close.

Living in the farmhouse is not an option as it's only a 2 bed

We applied to have a mobile caravan on the farm during the busiest time but were turned down.

Which leads me onto the AIBU. There are several properties in the village which are agriculturally tied, which means you can only purchase them if you are a farmer or forestry worker. This therefore means they are worth a lot less on the open market.

Recently the local council have been very lax in allowing these ties to be removed which means they are selling for double the money to joe public, which whilst I can understand it from the home owners point of view wanting to get as much money as possible, the reason they were allowed to be built in the first place was so that they were available for farming/agricultural needs.

I have done some research and as far as i can see the requirements for having a tie removed are that 1) you market it for a reasonable period of time to prove no interest and 2) the local council are supposed to conduct a survey in the local area to find out if there would be any farmers interest in purchasing.

The second one never happens, the first one is done by "stealth" meaning they never have any for sale signs up and are not online only in the estate agents which means people like us never get to hear about them by which time the mandatory time period for it being on the open market has passed.

I have contacted the local council and asked them why these requirements are not being adhered to, they couldn't answer me, I also asked to be informed of any property applications whereby the applicant wishes to remove the tie for selling purposes and was told we can always ring and ask if we hear of an application to remove the tie but probably wouldn't hold any water.

I have also registered with every estate agent within a 25 mile radius specifically requesting to be notified of any suitable properties in the area so I can't think what else to do.

We also approached one property owner who i know wants to leave the village in a year or so time to move in with family but we were told that they will be removing the tie to get the best possible price..

We purchased a piece of land and have been told in no uncertain terms we will not be allowed to build a small dwelling on there, regardless of the fact that there is a need to be close to the farm.

What on earth does the rest of the farming population do in similar circumstances? AIBU?

Why doesn't your FIL take on someone to run his business for him if he can't cope now?

Extend the farmhouse?

I honestly have no idea, he won't hand the farm over to OH he still wants "control" of it. And in anycase even if he did hand the farm over we would still not be able to live on/near it!

I know this isn't the question you asked but could you apply for an extension on the farmhouse?

Just put the static on the farm. Stick it behind a barn if you have to hide it. Needs must.

I would follow the council’s complaints procedure all the way to the top and go to the obudsman if necessary about them not following their own procedures and selling the properties to anyone.

Sounds like a restrictive covenant has been lifted.

Why are you both self employed? If this really is your fulltime job then you should be enjoying the benefits of being employed.

If you genuinely can't find anywhere to live nearby, maybe look at moving jobs where your commute is shorter.

Put a caravan there and ignore the local council. Call yourselves travellers and then apply for permission for a van on the site that you now own. The council would find it very, very difficult to refuse permission if you are travellers. a local horticulture business did that here where I live. tried for years to get a dwelling next to the poly tunnels and got turned down time and again. IN the end they realised that playing the game fairly got them nowhere. so they called themselves travellers and went for permission which they got.

Build a barn on the land you own. You don't need planning permission for this as its a permitted development. put in all the services and then after a year go for change of use to residential. we joked about neighbours who did this. their "cowshed" came fully fitted out with central heating, bathroom etc.

no one is going to find out or complain. Unfortunately the only way this is going to resolve is when there is a crisis.

sit father in law down and tell him that there are two choices:

1. an orderly handing over of the reins to the farm to you and DH including them moving out and you moving in. set a realistic timescale but set a time.
2. you have to stop helping him farm and will look for a job elsewhere because the current situation is untenable.

I would also involve the NFU as they are really helpful with the transitioning from one generation to the next.

I know my advice sounds brutal but unless you can actually live on the farm then FIL is never going to give up unless its laid out clearly for him. good luck.

Greatorb we are self employed because we don't just work on his dads farm, we are pulled into other farms on an ad hoc basis for various work such as helping with lambing, silaging, hay making etc. If we were employed we would be restricted to working only on his dads farm.

mummmeister - your advice sounds perfectly reasonable, however, there is no way the in laws would move they would see the farm go under before that happened! Which sadly may be the case if this continues.

That is a good idea about the barn though - do you have any idea how long the barn would have to be there before change of use arises? There is already a very small barn on the land, which is probably the size of a small bungalow, however there is no electric or water so thats something else we would need to look into.

There are definitely two problems here - your FIL and the housing situation. You've had some good advice on what to do regarding housing but I don't just think that's enough. The situation regarding the FIL and what you and your OH do doesn't sound fair.

I've seen this cause family disasters to some farming families around where I live. The best solution would be if your father-in-law signed the farm over to your DH now. Persuading them to do it though is very difficult.

My shepherd mates put a caravan in the barn during lambing.

Dh and I live in a house in the village that the farm owns. The cost of housing in our area is criminal so I sympathise.

I don’t know how easy development of agri buildings is actually. Our council just recently prevented one of our neighbours developing their (disused) barn into a home for their grown up children.

Full sympathy -farming is a very hard and often thankless (and non paying!) job.
I don't understand why you can't have a mobile (as in attached to a vehicle) caravan onsite? Surely that isn't a planning issue as it is temporary and mobile (also just stick it round the back so it isn't openly visible). The barn idea is really worth looking at.
Can you not hire a farm hand?

Well actually you don't have to wait but realistically you wait a year and then put the permission for change of use in.

if there is a barn already there, get services to it and start doing it up. put in permission for an agricultural tie 2 bed bungalow. the footprint of the building is there. it contravenes no planning rules in terms of visual amenity.

Its a redundant building in the countryside and the government brought in new rules to allow for these to be converted.

www.propertywire.com/news/uk/planning-change-announced-make-easier-convert-farm-buildings-homes/

Have a look at this and other articles. your best bet is to do something with the existing building. You need to garner support from the NFU and speak to your neighbours that you are disturbing to get them to support it and also your dads neighbours.

you need to do a lot of groundwork first but its worth it to pull together the support and then go for it.

I honestly understand your situation. and at the end of the day if he would sooner see the farm go under than hand it over then perhaps all you and DH are doing is forestalling the inevitable and it might be kinder to let it happen sooner rather than later.

I would get the NFU welfare involved though. they are used to dealing with this situation and will give you lots of support.

The council would find it very, very difficult to refuse permission if you are travellers
^^ This isn't true. Most Councils don't have a policy which safeguards sites or housing provision for travellers. The majority of applications from travellers are refused.

I think what would inevitably happen is that if his dad won't budge (hes a cantankerous bugger!) then we would have to start on our own which is do-able if we were based back in the area.

I dont know why i didnt think of NFU mummymeiser what an obvious place to start so thanks for that!

I am a chartered town planner (of nearly 20 years) and work in a local authority.

PLEASE get advice from a qualified planning agent who specialises in agriculture (RTPI) if you want to put something on the farm / convert at a later date. DO NOT take the advice from this thread - mainly because some of it is incorrect. I would give some advice but you’d have no idea of my credentials and whether it’s correct or not!!!

Also I’ve never heard that a council need to check and do a survey when an application to remove a tie is received. It is for the applicant to prove that the tie is no longer required. In terms of advice regarding this matter I would strongly suggest talking to your local councillor and parish/town council so they are fully aware of your situation and can hopefully remember this if another application is received. Keep on good terms with them and. Check in with them to remind them of your plight every few months.

Oh another option is to get on the housing waiting list at the council or local housing association for a shared ownership property (if they are building anything locally). As a previous owner of one there are some downsides, but can also be a good way of getting where you want to be (if you can get a mortgage).

I really don't understand people encouraging the OP to flout the planning regs and if it was so easy to plonk a mobile home down anywhere, or convert an existing building into a dwelling, everyone would be at it.

OP has two problems, a FIL who hasn't made any plans for his business yet expects others to step in a cover for his mistakes, and difficulty in buying a house convenient for her business. She should concentrate on her own family, and if it proves too difficult to resolve their commuting issues, do what everyone else has to, re-locate or get another job.

Would you be looking for tenancy if your fil’s farm becomes redundant?

I think you should be looking for a nice rental locally until the perfect tenancy comes up. That’s what every agricultural worker I know has always done.

Good luck. It’s a tough slog but you’ll find your little patch, i’m sure.

mouikey and ifailed - meanwhile, back in the real world...

a mobile home is not a fixed dwelling. its mobile. the OP is suggesting using something like this during lambing. every single farmer I know in my area has one of these because farms are spread out and lambing is a crucial time. Our LA takes a reasonable approach.

farming is different from other jobs it really is. there is an incredible emotional pull back to the land where your family farm and just treating it like working in Tesco's is unreasonable because it isn't like that. if the farm fails its her FIL lifes work. he probably has a breed line of animals and will know the land like the back of his hand. its a much more emotional connection than a 9 - 5 job.

Of course the OP needs to seek some advice about planning. but planning departments now often charge for pre app advice and employing a planning professional can be very expensive. I have given the OP a link to a government initiative. are you saying the link is wrong mouikey?

Hope you manage to speak to the NFU OP. They really will have a lot of suggestions and helpful advice for you. they are a godsend in our area with the older farmers and of course those with depression and all the other issues farmers are facing.

I’m from a farming background. Most farming families that I know of, where an adult child marries and is going to take on the farm eventually, they usually build another property on the farm, often a smaller, more modern one, for the older parents to move into / retire. And the young family moves into the farmhouse.
But all this is based on a family discussion / decision about what’s going to happen to the farm in the long term... has your OHs family had any of these discussions? How close is your FIL to retiring? Are there any other siblings around to take into account?

Can the loft of the farmhouse be converted into a room ? Or tow a caravan behind car and park at each farm location. A farmer should pay his staff wages

farming is different from other jobs it really is Nonsense. There are plenty of people emotionally attached to their occupation, and to try and claim agriculture employment is somehow different from everything else does no-one any favours, least of all people in the sector.

Your link indeed describes how landowners can covert existing buildings into dwellings more easily, nothing the OP has stated indicates they own such property. As to mobile homes, unless there is permission for a dwelling, you can only occupy one for 28 days in any one year, hardly useful for the OP.