Redeployment- being made to lose hours/pay

[Hastag0417]

Please can anyone give me some advice on ‘suitable alternative employment’ I currently work for a large organisation that has decided to outsource the back office type work. I currently work 9.30-2.30 and drop off/pick up my kids from school. They are stating there is no option of redundancy as they will offer an alternative role in the business. There is another building closer to my home but they say there are no positions there and I’ll have to travel into town. I can’t do this as it means I can’t do the school runs. Can they force me to put my children in childcare (costing me (£30 per day) which I can’t afford or make me reduce my hours losing 20 hours a month pay again which I can’t afford. This has been going on for months and the company are being very underhand and stating we have to take what they offer or leave. I’ve been there over 15 years and my contract states I work at the building closer to home. They also said if they did find a role at the closer building we would have to work until 6pm... I’m sick of telling them I can’t do it!! Next year when my son joins secondary school there is no after school care and they expect me to let an 11 year old make his own way home, let himself in and be alone until I get home at 6.30pm!! Any advice?? Desperate!

You can get redundancy I believe. If you turn the alternative job offer down you need to show that's it's not unreasonable which you can due to child care costs etc.

Thank you, I thought this was the case but they repeatedly tell us they only have to offer us another role within the business. This has been going on since January and they are constantly trying to find ways to get us to go to the city location. I told them I’d be working for nothing if I had to pay childcare for 2 children and was told “we all have to do that if you want a job”
I was also told I had to “find a solution” to my son (who has dyspraxia) getting home. I’m honestly at the point of a breakdown. Thanks again

I'm not sure that your childcare issues are your employer's concern. You'd hope they would understand and be reasonable - but I'm not sure that legally they have to.

Has your employer put everything into writing related to the redeployment. There should be timescales, what jobs are on offer etc. If you work for a large company there should be an internal employee forum that you can ask questions. Failing no forum, suggest consult union or CAB. Ref your childcare have you formally applied for reduced hours of work in the new job role ? Your employer is not responsible for your child care costs or arrangements.

If there are changes to your work location and possibilities of redundancy, then you should be in an official consultation period - which is a set number of days that is defined by how many people are are 'at risk' by the changes.

During the consultation, you're entitled to a set number of 121 recorded meetings where all concerns are raised formally, then at the next meeting, they should come back with the official answers to your questions. You're also entitled to counter propose the changes.

As a PP has said, your childcare arrangements are not the employer's responsibility. They have a responsibility to set out to you what the new proposal is and you either need to accept or not. If the proposal is unacceptable, then redundancy COULD be offered, but it is entirely dependent on whether the company have offered you a suitable alternative (even if it's not one that's suitable for your individual needs - that's your decision).

If you're in a union then I would speak to them as soon as you can or call ACAS.

Call ACAS - they can advise you here.

It’s a common misconception that redundancy is something that should be “offered”. It’s not. It’s a matter of law. If there is a diminished requirement for employees to carry out work of a particular kind in a particular place then it’s a redundancy. Yes, of course your employers are obliged to look for and offer you suitable alternative work. If they make an offer that you unreasonably reject they can withhold your redundancy payment.

Ultimately you may have to stand firm, reject their offer and if they refuse to pay your redundancy payment, take them to an employment tribunal. If they refuse to dismiss you you may have to resign but you’d then also be entitled to recover the difference between your and their notice (if there is one).

It's awful when someone pulls the rug out from under you like this, I really feel for you.

But, iirc, they're offering the same hours at a different location, or shorter hours to facilitate the school run if necessary, or longer (9:30-6) hours at your current location, so don't feel they're being entirely unreasonable.

Are you full time? Could you work 9:30-6 but over three days, so longer hours over fewer days to reduce childcare costs?

Once your dc are at secondary school I think they should be fine getting home by themselves tbh.

Hi thanks for the advice everyone. This is my issue. I currently work 9.30- 2.30pm which means I can drop off the kids at school and then get to work and pick the kids up at 3pm. They have offered me a good role at a local different site which is great, but are now asking if I can cover a shift until 6pm or lose that job offer and be made to go a city site which again I can’t do.
I’m part time for a reason - my issue is a) childcare costs but primarily the needs of my son. He has Asperger and dyspraxia and I sometimes get called to go to school if he’s become upset. I don’t think it’s fair to expect school/distressed child to wait for over an hour for me to get to him when there’s an office that I could work in only 12 mins away.
Secondly, secondary school starts for my son next year, due to his condition this is going to be a massive transition and will require a lot of support for him and I definitely would not consider him safe to make the journey home alone. He will then need to let himself into an empty house and be home alone until I get in at 6.30pm. He will just have turned 11 years old and I am at my wits end with worry. My mum died a few years ago and I have no alternative help. Please also be aware it’s a back office role so there is no business need to ask me to work until 6pm. They also initially told us we would be placed in a new role on our current working pattern but have now back tracked on this.

I know it’s harsh but you childcare requirements are not the issue of your employer. If you turn down the offer of alternative employment which is deemed reasonable, then I think they can refuse to pay redundancy.

However I suspect they’ll be on shaky ground in terms of what is reasonable. Do you have a union?

Your childcare issues are NOT your employer's responsibility so forget that issue.

If it's a reasonable offer will depend on the hours you're doing now, and what's being offered. If you're currently doing 5 hours a day, 5 days a week making 25 hours, and they are offering an alternative of (for example) 3 full days of 8 hours making 24, in a town 20 miles away, that's potentially reasonable. You need to seek advice from ACAS.

But don't get into the "i can't do x, y, or z because of childcare" because that is totally irrelevant from an employer's perspective.

Your childcare issues are NOT your employer's responsibility so forget that issue.

This is not true. It's been a few years since I practiced in employment but the test was always that the alternative role has both objectively and subjectively reasonable, and a seemingly minor change can have a large impact on the employee's childcare arrangements resulting in the role being unreasonable and the smployee therefore being entitled to a redundancy payment.

I'd suggest posting on the Legal Matters board OP. You'll get better quality advice there.

The question is whether you would be unreasonably rejecting the offer of suitable alternative emloyment. IMO you wouldn't. You've got good reasons why the alt employment isn't suitable so as another poster has said, you may have to go to an Employment Tribunal to get your redundancy payment if necessary

And it all comes down to "reasonable". OP thinks the alternative is unreasonable. Her employer doesn't.

And it all comes down to "reasonable". OP thinks the alternative is unreasonable. Her employer doesn't.

Yes and the real question is whether a Tribunal would think the offer was reasonable if it ended up before them.

If I recall, the reasonable and suitable alternative can be more different than you would expect, but when I went through redundancy the focus was on change in roles rather than change in hours/pay.

You desperately need advise from a union/acad though: there are fairly clear definitions. The key point to me is that your contract states your located in your current local office- does it have any language about being redeployed if necessary? Because if you can get someone legal to confirm the contract locks down your rights to be in your local office, then as far as I know it should give you the right to claim redundancy if they try to move you, whereas if that's not clearly stated then moving to the nearest city once it's a 'reasonable' distance would mean they could get away with just offering you the job or you resigning, there would be no obligation to pay redundancy. You'd definitely want to take proper advise though, not just rely on your interpretation of what it says.

I don't know about working hours but again, I'm not sure it would be unreasonable for them to say there are jobs you could do that require one late shift a week, and you'd need to take advise on that baring in mind the specific terms of your contract. Would paying for an after school childminder or activity one day a week be impossible?

During my redundancy, they substantially changed the roles of three people, none of whom wanted to do then new roles, but were able to argue they were equivalent. Because of a subtle difference in wording in the description of one of their contracts one of those three people was able to argue they should be made redundant and the other two weren't. So it's v important to focus on specifics.

My guess is that you'd rather not seek a redundancy payment via tribunal, because it will still leave you in a position of seeking employment 9:30-2:30, within a ten minute radius of the school.

It would be much better if you could seek an accord with your employer imo.

What childcare do you use in the holidays? If you reduced your days, working more hours each day over fewer days, would that make childcare affordable? Would your employer consider increasing your salary to compensate for the changing hours/travel to other site?

Also, to put your mind to rest a little, I work in a school and can can promise you that we do not expect to call parents and have them appear within minutes. It is perfectly normal to have to wait an hour or longer, and provide appropriately for the child in the meantime.

Agree that your childcare issues are not your employer's problem.

Whether the offer of alternative employment is reasonable depends on your contract and how far away the new office is. ACAS should give you good advice.

Re changing your hours, you should be within your rights to work your current agreed hours.

However, it may be reasonable to say no if it involves a difficult journey or affects personal matters like children’s education.

the above is from the government webite

Agree that your childcare issues are not your employer's problem.

OP, please ignore all this advice from well-meaning people who do not know the law and get some proper advice! The advice that you are getting here is wrong.

If you're in a union they can help, otherwise CAB or a free legal clinic might be your easiest options (www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice-individuals/find-legal-advice-clinic-near-you).

Would the longer hours option not cover the cost of the childcare? I do think it's worth trying to work out a solution with this employer as I'd have thought you're unlikely to get another 9:30-2:30 job as close to your home/kids' school as you need to be. I understand your concerns around your son's needs but how often do you actually get called into school? If it's not that often then an hour away isn't ideal but it's not too bad and he may need that kind of help less as he gets older. He may not, who can say, but it does seem worth paying for childcare not only to facilitate keeping your job but also so there's someone else there for your DC. It doesn't seem sustainable for you to need to be so close to home on standby for years to come. I hope you get something worked out. It sounds very difficult, but as PP said, your employer does seem to be offering various solutions even if it's not exactly what you want (i.e. what you have now).

Next year when my son joins secondary school there is no after school care and they expect me to let an 11 year old make his own way home, let himself in and be alone until I get home at 6.30pm!!

Whats wrong with that? He will be 11, hes not a young child. Not trying to be funny as we will be doing the same.

Go and get legal advice from acas or citizens advice centre, you'll get a whole lot of, well meaning, conflicting advice on here so correct and some wrong, much better to take your paperwork to one of the above and get some free knowledgeable advice

OP has already explained that he has SN, Laguna

You need proper advice - don't do forget to them your son has SN - they might have to make allowances for a disabled dependent