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Laura Ingalls Wilder unapproved!!

128 replies

IrmaFayLear · 24/06/2018 19:05

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/24/laura-ingalls-wilders-name-removed-from-book-award-over-racial-concerns

I know the books contain "unenlightened" views, but this book was of the time. If all racist views and comments are deleted from literature/history, then how are people supposed to know they ever existed?

The Ingalls family were pioneers - or settlers if you will. They were afraid - for genuine reasons - of "red Indians". Were the Native Americans in the right? 100%.

I don't want half-witted knee-jerk censorship. Frankly just about everything is going to have to be "unapproved" if we go down this road. The past is another country, not a country that didn't exist.

OP posts:
IrmaFayLear · 25/06/2018 11:05

Exactly, Xenia. No warts and all in those times!

Did you say upthread you were in possession of "Pioneer Girl" published a couple of years ago? Fascinating book. Also very interesting about her later life, when they seemed to be relatively affluent, visiting the World's Fair in San Francisco etc.

Glad to find fellow LIG fans! I remember a poster some years ago saying she had been to (one of) the LH museums in US and had bought a Pa's violin fridge magnet Envy

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/06/2018 11:07

Um, have you read many books from that era?! They bloody loved deaths. It was fashionable.

She was pretty clear that she left the death out because initially, when she wrote the first book, she amalgamated events from several times in her childhood, and chose to include Carrie but not Freddie. She then wrote more books, but thought it would be too complicated to change the timeline again. That's also why Little House on the Prairie feels a bit thin at times - she is actually talking about some events that happened when she was younger than she was when they were in Wisconsin.

IrmaFayLear · 25/06/2018 11:12

Probably a bit of both. Also she may herself have been a bit vague on what happened. Dm had six younger siblings all born at home and she said she never knew when one was on the way or was being born!

OP posts:
Xenia · 25/06/2018 11:35

LRD, actually that's right and the Victorians loved a death bed scene and they even took photos of children after death - it was a thing.

JacquesHammer · 25/06/2018 12:16

and no-one reads this stuff to their DCs - it's irrelevant all round

I read them to my DD when she was 5/6. She has since re-read them herself and still loves them.

I think they're wonderful books and enjoy reading them regularly myself.

I have no issue with the name of the award being altered.

Birdsgottafly · 25/06/2018 12:42

We should now reconsider the honoring of people whose actions/opinions we now consider abhorrent, or know are wrong.

""I think it's a bit of a stretch to call LIW a racist. It even says in the article that she edited some of her more controversial sentences later in life.""

It's the same as Rosanne Barr has done, or Trump in his turn around in immigration policies. Other people objected so they say they got it wrong and are so sorry.

Today is the 142nd anniversary of the Battle of Little Bighorn (Custer's last Stand). It wasn't just a battle, Women and Children were deliberately killed. It started the "Sell or Starve" Bill. They hoped to kill enough of the Plains Indians for it to end there.

It wasn't similar to a Holocaust, it was a Holocaust. I never think that Ethic Cleansing comes close enough. Any books painting a jolly life of a Nazi during the European Holocaust certainly wouldn't have made it to a TV series and that was in 1974.

Custer and Reno were considered Heroes, until the 1960's. It was appropriate that the Worship for them stopped.

It isn't eradicating history, it's facing up to the past and saying that it was wrong and everyone is working for change.

The UK now needs to do the same over Lord Kitchener.

bluetongue · 25/06/2018 12:58

To be fair the Ingalls didn’t really have a ‘jolly life’ did they. There were times they nearly starved and were often desperately poor.

Yes they were technically a cog in the machine that was killing Native Americans and taking away their land but at the end of the day they were just a family doing their best to eke out a living in harsh surroundings.

Birdsgottafly · 25/06/2018 13:27

bluetongue, that could be said of any invading forces and settlers. Or even the Slave Owners.

She had a very jolly life compared to the Native Americans.

All I'm saying is, put in in other settings and we wouldn't accept it being made into popular viewing. The ordinary German people who moved into the newly vacated properties and whose children were magically supplied with clothing/shoes, still had it rough, compared to Today's standards.

I mentioned Kitchener. He is the equivalent of Hitler, yet he is on lots of jolly merchandise.

I've said it on other threads, but we certainly do pick and choose our Heroes and Demons.

5foot5 · 25/06/2018 13:43

I recently read the biography "Prairie Fires" and found it fascinating. Passed it on to DD who enjoyed it equally as much.

Who reads this stuff nowadays? It's nowhere on any GCSE course that I am aware of (please correct if not) and no-one reads this stuff to their DCs - it's irrelevant all round

Speechless! I also read them to DD when she was small. I was under the misapprehension that it was just a trilogy so we were both overjoyed when DD came across the rest of the books in a second hand bookshop. We have both read them several times.

Oh and we are not American.

PimlicoWaif · 25/06/2018 15:49

It wasn't similar to a Holocaust, it was a Holocaust. I never think that Ethic Cleansing comes close enough. Any books painting a jolly life of a Nazi during the European Holocaust certainly wouldn't have made it to a TV series and that was in 1974

The TV series was inexplicably popular bland suburban pap, but it certainly wasn't alone in its 'othering' and whitewashing of Native American genocide -- look at pretty much every western ever made until slightly more self-aware ones like Dances With Wolves and others subsequent to it started being made, where 'Red Indians' are either actively evil savages or expendable gun fodder. And I think DWW was around 1990 . Not many TV writers were interrogating the myth of the pioneer West in the 70s.

I think the novels, while obviously hugely problematic in the way they portray Native Americans being shoved off their land as the 'natural' consequences of white settlement and of course Ma and others' fear and hatred of 'Indians' are at least slightly more nuanced in some ways, certainly for a children's book written someone who was pretty reactionary AND using the limited generic vocabulary of the pioneer childhood book, which was never going to be about NA abuses.

Countering Ma's anti-'Indian' prejudice is the more sympathetic Pa's respect for individuals, like the NA chief who prevents the slaughter of the white settlers (whom Pa stands and salutes, and who is actually named, rather than being Random Indian) or the elderly man who comes to warn the town of De Smet about the long winter, to whom Pa listens, when the other men are jeering. (Though yes, weather-warning man is depicted in deeply stereotypical ways.)

And even when I was quite small and reading LIW for the first time, I found the end of LHotP, when huge numbers of NAs all leave camp and ride West on the path outside the Ingalls' house, mysterious and fascinating. It's depicted as grandiose and deeply sad, though Laura doesn't understand why (and also wants a cute 'red' baby), and the end of something, and Pa's explanation, that 'that's what Indians do, they go west', is clearly inadequate. And of course the Ingalls themselves leave shortly after, as troops are supposed to be coming to evict them.

That's another thing LIW whitewashes in the novels -- in the fiction, Pa thought the land they settled on was going to be 'opened up for settlement' (obviously, as though no one already lived there Hmm), and it's presented as a mistake. But in RL Pa, who was a far more rackey and dishonest character than the Pa of the novels, deliberately squatted on Native American land, knowing it was illegal.

Everything in the novels is tidied up to suit the pioneering myth, and of course the novels are powerfully self-censoring about the life Laura was actually drawing on -- not just the death of her baby brother and how little privacy for sex and birth there would have been in isolated situations, but the fact that Pa often cut and run from debts in the middle of the night, and that Ma and the girls actually worked in a rough railway hotel.

TulipsInAJug · 25/06/2018 16:21

I don't think Pa was 'dishonest'. In Prairie Fires, Fraser describes one occasion when they did a moonlit flit, but just one, and it is because they were desperate. Pa was a risk-taker and adventurer, but people had to be like that then just to survive. Caroline Fraser draws a deeply sympathetic portrait of him - it's fascinating how she brings out that Pa is in fact the hero of the books, and that in real life, despite living from hand to mouth and barely surviving, he displayed heroism. For example during the Long Winter when they sheltered a couple who had had a child out of wedlock and didn't ask for a penny from them, and when Pa went without food to feed his family and the baby, and when he hauled hay for the town.

IrmaFayLear · 25/06/2018 17:06

I think Pa was a pain. He kept uprooting his family not merely to improve their lot but sometimes "just for a change". He had a family of women, so no one to help with heavy work, but refused to cut his coat according to his cloth. He was reasonably educated and worked in office jobs (railway clerk) but still held on to the homesteading dream.

You can feel the pain of Ma who was probably worn out with all this "adventuring".

OP posts:
GallicosCats · 25/06/2018 17:22

I noticed that Ma lost a son and Laura lost a son (I remember the vivid description of his yellow colour and the fit he had Sad) and wonder if there was a sex-linked genetic condition in the mix somewhere. My DH's 92-year old GM lost 5 sons in the 1950s and 4 of those were 'blue babies'. I wonder what the diagnosis would have been today.

GallicosCats · 25/06/2018 17:25

Reading about the attitudes towards Native Americans has made me realise why I always hated Westerns and never liked the LHoP TV series.

Bekabeech · 25/06/2018 17:43

I think it would be worse not to read the books. They make it quite clear that the family moved into "Indian Territory" when they didn't even have Government approval. Not reading the books would mean hiding that white people ever did that kind of thing.
Or the time they are warned about the bad winter by a native American coming into town just to warn them.
Nevermind the description of the huge flocks of Passenger Pigeons, which were extinct by the time Laura was an adult.

I think Laura wrote them, having read a collection of the articles she wrote for the local Newspaper. Her daughter might have helped her make her books more "commercial".

And they are one of the few series that my reluctant reader daughter read and was inspired by - anything that can encourage reading has merit.

TulipsInAJug · 25/06/2018 21:24

Pa would have kept on the railway clerk job if he could - but like a lot of work, it was seasonal, and ran out. He then turned to other things, like carpentry, but it too was only in demand when towns were being built, and then dried up. It wasn't as simple as getting a job because he was educated. He was resourceful and kept his promise to Ma to settle and allow the girls to get a schooling.

Onceuponatimethen · 25/06/2018 21:36

Pa was loving - a lot more hands on with his girls than many dads now...playing his fiddle for them, telling them the story of the little cat and the big cat, talking to them about right and wrong

He is a loving husband - the beautiful shelves he makes for Ma and her dress fabric

He is resourceful, brave, physically strong, practical and handsome

A bit of a woman’s fantasy of the ideal man but I loved it as a child! Smile

TheHulksPurplePanties · 26/06/2018 05:33

It's the same as Rosanne Barr has done, or Trump in his turn around in immigration policies. Other people objected so they say they got it wrong and are so sorry.

Not quite, as she did it on her own, not because the weight of public opinion forced her to. Nobody would have said anything in the 1920's/30's about her referring to Native American's as "not-people".

Her opinion would stem from the overall general opinion and propaganda of the time. There were massive pushes to paint the Native Americans as savages during the time, not to mention efforts to eradicate them. No matter how enlightened you were during the time, the fact that you could sell a Native American scalp for the same price as a beaver pelt would make a lasting impression on a person, especially a young woman with a pioneer education.

Bekabeech · 26/06/2018 06:20

Birdsgottafly I think having more literature which shows our past atrocities as human beings rather than less would help. Okay with the LHOTP books you might need a commentary (and the TV show was vastly inferior, and would be made very differently now).

The ordinary German people who moved into the newly vacated properties and whose children were magically supplied with clothing/shoes, still had it rough, compared to Today's standards. This could actually make a very good basis for a book or TV show - to show us how "ordinary people" can be involved in atrocities. There is a bit in "Fahterland" by Robert Harris (which is an alternative history where Germany won), where a character realises what he has been hiding from himself - about the what happened to the previous residents of his flat.

This is what good writing can and should do. And we shouldn't ban "Huckleberry Finn" because of its racism - but also not just accept those attitudes.
Just as Liverpool still has images of Slavery - which should be used to remind ourselves where its wealth came from. And rather than tearing down statues of Cecil Rhodes we should discuss/educate about just what the problems with him are.
Some people are proud to be descended from Genghis Khan, but no one pretends he was a nice person.

TheHulksPurplePanties · 26/06/2018 06:25

All I'm saying is, put in in other settings and we wouldn't accept it being made into popular viewing.

The Boy in the Striped Pajamas?

PrimalLass · 26/06/2018 06:30

The worship on MN of LIW books bewilders me. I must ask if anyone I know IRL has ever read any of them (I suspect not).

I've read them all repeatedly.

Xenia · 26/06/2018 07:33

Some of us just really like the books, not least because of Laura's struggles as a woman to be free and her admiration of the native americans etc. It is not because any of us admire the damage done to the native americans. It was dreadful. There are loads of children's books I loved - I still have a lot of them upstairs. I just read and read and read as a child - at one stage more non fiction than fiction.

If you don't hyou like those books that's fine too. Our mother read us the Just William books at bedtimes and we all laughed so much at those but I couldn't read them myself easily. I think they were just harder than my then reading ability allowed so they were books I knew from her reading them to us and not reading them myself, whereas the Wilder books were easier to read. I also liked Wilder's descriptions of nature and the flowers and landscape etc.

MesM · 30/06/2018 06:51

“Were the Native Americans in the right? 100%”

Yes.

KERALA1 · 30/06/2018 07:18

Loved these as a child really stayed with me. Good stories and so informative about that period of history.

Reading as an adult interesting how perspectives change as a child I though Pa quite a hero as an adult he's a nightmare! Making them all move on all the time.

lucydogz · 30/06/2018 07:54

This says it for me

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