Germphobia is a class thing, isn't it?

[tenbob]

Full disclosure: I'm slightly fascinated by the posters here who won't wash their hands on a towel at someone else's house, buy cakes at a school fair or use a public toilet for fear of germs, and admit to being the sort of person who eats stuff past the sell-by date if it passes the sniff test

But I've just spent a couple of days working at a food fair type thing and noticed a definite class divide in germ tolerance

There was no end of stereotypical posh families who would share their ice cream with the Labrador, eat food that had fallen on the floor etc

And the mums (it was always the mums) who were obsessively wet wiping everything were non-posh

Can you prove or debunk my theory?
And if I'm right, why are the upper classes so relaxed about dirt?

I buy secondhand uniform for the only child I have left in school. The extortionate price of school embroidered logos and names (crests? Is that what I'm thinking of?) is ridiculous. And the school specific pe kits for different sports. I buy all of it secondhand if I can.

sprinkles I am guessing that those with germ phobia, my mil is one will not buy second hand anything including uniform.

My grandmother had horses in her kitchen and her hall on a daily basis.

Small terraced Fulham house. My great grandfather kept his two horses in the back yard and the only way out to the street was through the house. He would curse at my great grandmother for polishing the floor and putting rugs down as it risked the horses slipping. We're talking shire horses here.

I imagine people who have germ phobia will also be disturbed by the number of people
Who have touched there brand new clothes manufactured in Sri Lanka so not sure it matters that much. People don’t tend to discard second hand clothes for germs, more that they want new

I'm an uncomfortable WC/MC hybrid and I aspire to care less about cleanliness, tidiness etc but in truth it comes high on my priority list.

I care what people think. Sad, but true.

Shoes off in our house is a funny mixture:

Me - Scandinavian parent. Shoes off at door, then wanders around happily barefoot or in socks, only slippers when freezing cold.

DH - Lower middle class parent, v concerned about social niceties (doilies, cake forks, endless cards, that sort of thing, yes germs). Shoes off at door then slippers immediately. Will pack slippers in his suitcase when going away such are the importance of having slippers on all occasions.

DH finds my lack of interest in slippers confusing. I find his obsession concerning. Meanwhile we are united as a shoes off household.

I totally agree OP

The stereotype of UC = scruffy is generational I think.

I know a UMC woman who married into a titled family and gained a title herself. Big country estate. Lots of money. She carries designer bags, wears designer clothes and is immaculate. Hair, make up, everything. They have also done huge renovations to their house. Not for her the life of a scruffy minor aristo.

I am confused by the premise of the opening post. I am not a germaphobe, but I don't eat cakes at school fairs, and would prefer not to use a damp hand towel at someone else's house (or indeed my own - they get changed regularly). I also wouldn't share an ice cream with my dog (the latter is particularly skanky). These are just sensible precautions for me. However, conversely I don't go around obsessively wiping with anti bac wipes or carry alcohol gel. Its about reasonable cleanliness.

I don't have much to say on the purported class relationship with cleanliness - I find the Mn obsession with class more than a bit cringe to be perfectly honest.

I spent a Summer cleaning a stunningly beautiful set of holiday cottages. I can absolutely state that the posher they were, the more of a shithole they would leave them in. Generally working class families appreciated them far more, the worst being a titled family who destroyed their cottage in a long weekend.

@laiste Shires must have looked massive in a house.

How the hell would you know what class they were from cleaning their holiday cottage?!

Do you think it may be more about educational levels than class? My parents and grandparents were very poorly educated and were very houseproud. I had the benefit of a much better education and tend not to be germ-obsessed. I like things to be reasonably clean and tidy but I'm not neurotic (keep your shoes on,just use the doormat!)

I am not a germaphobe, but I don't eat cakes at school fairs, and would prefer not to use a damp hand towel at someone else's house (or indeed my own - they get changed regularly). I also wouldn't share an ice cream with my dog (the latter is particularly skanky). These are just sensible precautions for me.

See, that seems completely OTT to me. I'm certainly not revelling in filthiness - we are all clean if not very tidy and mostly clothes are not ironed, but hair gets brushed daily etc - but I wouldn't give any of those things a second thought. I might balk at sharing an ice cream with someone else's dog, completely irrationally.

I think there are many reasons behind what cleanliness and fear of germs "signals" in class obsessed Britain. I do think shame plays a large part, the very rich, especially across generations know that their homes signal they are at the top of the class tree and therefore have no shame about what they look like because none of that threatens their status.

People in other classes depending on how much class anxiety they have absorbed can be triggered to think various states of uncleanliness to be shameful.

I lived in Germany for many years and in my experience Germans are extremely houseproud and very tidy and organised. You definitely would be judged by your neighbors if you vered from the norm. I found this to be the case at all income levels. As a society I would say their standards of cleanliness were higher than the UK. It is normal for everyone to take their shoes off when entering a home. Everyone had their slippers or "house shoes" as they are called.

I am now in the US. Generally people in the US have high standards of cleanliness and just less clutter, they don't leave many items out on kitchen counters and in bathrooms for example. It may be as the houses are bigger they have more storage.

Also wealthy Americans don't go for dirt and shabbiness as high status. I think this is just down to different social histories. In the UK the very rich have lived in their country piles for generations and established their social dominance eons ago. In the USA the very wealthy can have people of every immigrant group represented and high status is shown in new technology. There are still the big glorious traditional houses but they tend to be extremely well kept. Grey Gardens being the exception rather than the rule.

The initial upper class on the East Coast was also very WASPy and had the Protestant and puritanical emphasis on cleanliness.

This reminds me of that sketch:

"You should have carried it"

I knew what class they were because we usually met them. We were there daily, spoke to them and the owners lived on the site. They were a huge converted stable block on farm where the animals were part of the experience, not some isolated cottage where you never saw the guests, obviously.

"Dustmice"

I am not a germaphobe, but I don't eat cakes at school fairs, and would prefer not to use a damp hand towel at someone else's house (or indeed my own - they get changed regularly). I also wouldn't share an ice cream with my dog (the latter is particularly skanky). These are just sensible precautions for me

Precautions from what though?

What do you actually think will happen if you use a damp towel or a home-baked cake?
Is it part of bigger health anxiety?

I find these discussions really interesting because I've been on both sides of the fence (in terms of views on hygiene).

Grew up completely mucky through neglectful childhood.

Then went through a stage of wanting to grow up, prove myself, 'become better', etc. and got completely clean obsessed. Cleaning bathroom on hands and knees with toothbrushes in crevices etc.

Then had a bit of an existential crisis and saw my body as something completely different... I guess like a hunk of 'mucky meat' that wasn't really me but something I was sort of piloting. Then didn't care so much whether my 'mucky meat' came in contact with other people's 'mucky meat' or germs (ha, that sounds worse than I mean!), or indeed about whether anything around me was clean other than basic standards (ie. food hygiene).

One thing I've come to realise is that small shifts in the way you perceive the world can drastically affect the way you interact with it.

I think there is an undercurrent i.e. if you are worried about catching germs from home made cakes etc you are A Bit Thick aka working class.

If you laugh merrily about the time you found Sophie eating dirt in the backyard and you simply scooped her up and went about your day, you are One of Us.

I'm really not sure it is a working class thing, eating home baked goods was a massive part of the working class area I grew up in, and home made tablet etc. I didn't come across this attitude to home made things until I met my MIL who is lower middle class not working class. I do think a lack of education plays into her fears about germs, she isn't think but she doesn't have a lot of school based education. Just want to add for the record that against all mumsnet advice I do actually really like her and she tolerates by germ filled ways as well.

Being over-clean and prim is, historically, very lower middle-class. Being dirty is upper class, but they live in the country so it doesn't count.

Exceptions are, as ever, the interesting bit. I have a friend, the DD of a baron, who nurtures a lifelong obsession with wipes and asks for different kinds for her birthday.

Another friend, DD of a pub cook, is so filthy her third baby ended up in intensive care after eating the cat's (rejected) lunch off the floor followed by full-on gastroenteritis for five days, neither of which she noticed. All her DCs are incredibly healthy now.

Interesting. DW was brought up in a thatched cottage with cold water and an outside earth closet. I was brought up in service quarters. We both clean, but I do the lion's share as DW doesn't worry about being evicted by the facegrinding bastard FIL worked for. I still have DM and various warrant officers living in my head, howling at specks of dust.

I would agree based on my own observations. I work in a private school in an affluent area - the parents go out of their way to buy 2nd Hans uniform, drive old cars and generally come across a bit rugged!
In my working class area where I live, other mums at the local school are obsessed with going home to clean, keep spotless homes and buy all their kids clothes new- even if they have 2 the same sex they buy the second one new clothes.