When did sexual orientation begin in history?

[howfardoestherabbitholego]

When did sexual orientation become a thing in history?

I was really surprised when I did some googling to find out that in ancient times there wasn't heterosexuality or homosexuality but people just had sex with people without an orientation as such

It was seen as bad for an older man to be the submissive partner but fine for him if not the recipient and a younger male partner (think the word was pedantry)

I was really suprised (never studied history) that it seems in ancient times men could have sex with whoever they like - they just had to make sure that was a woman, slave, younger boy, foreigner etc for it be considered morally ok

I'm heterosexual but it seems so inbuilt in me and I always assume that homosexual people it's inbuilt to be homosexual... history (if what I've been reading is correct... Wikipedia mainly) seems to challenge that and suggest that we may have learned being heterosexual/homosexual???

I don't have an AIBU... just surprised and intrigued

I guess more modern religion introduced the idea of homosexuality being wrong but the ancient religions - did they hold that view?? I haven't found that they did...

Hoping someone more knowledgeable pops along to join in

Pederasty is the word I think you mean. And me correcting you is pedantry!

I don’t know, but I think you mean pederasty not pedantry

It feels so wrong to point that out in this context...

Recently I was having an interesting discussion/ civilised debate on another forum about transgender rights etc. (right up until a TRA waded in and ruined it!!) and apparently some native American tribes/ cultures historically had 4 or 5 genders.

the-numinous.com/native-american-two-spirits/

I remember reading something a while ago that talked about sexuality as a concept being a pretty recent invention. Before this, there were people who performed homosexual or heterosexual acts, but the idea of being a homosexual, for example, wasn't really the same as now. It was interesting, will have a dig around and see if I can find it.

I think sometimes we (as I humans) accept without questioning how things are now, and assume it has always been this way. History is often more interesting and revealing than the dull lessons that we had at school.

I think you're talking about Ancient Greece. In other places things would be different. I believe the idea of a person being homosexual rather than engaging in homosexual acts is pretty recent. Maybe 60s/70s.

There are still lots of people who like to have same sex partners but don't consider themselves gay.

Look into ‘queer theory’.

It wasn't this article, but this mentions the same ideas:

queergrace.com/history/

You might want to read Michel Foucault’s History of Sexuality (or dip into it, as I did at uni), which deals with this topic and is really interesting.

This narrative is really only how we see the development of the homosexual orientation in Western civilisation. It is also heavily influenced by a moment in time (Classical culture) and, I would argue, isn't especially reliable.

AFAIR, Foucault believes sexuality is a construct, and therefore constructed differently in different societies.

I was really suprised (never studied history) that it seems in ancient times men could have sex with whoever they like - they just had to make sure that was a woman, slave, younger boy, foreigner etc for it be considered morally ok

It's interesting, yes.

I would however mention this:

You're talking about one sort of "model"...

Pederasty was e.g. accepted/encouraged/common in ancient Greece, to a certain extent Rome, medieval Islamic societies, Japan during certain times etc...

Secondly... Some of these boys were prebuscent (in the case of pederasty). That's not what most of 'us' consider to be homosexuality.

That's interesting because also until recently there was no concept of paedophilia. The age of consent was much lower and it was accepted that some men would find young girls and boys attractive.

What Roomba said. Foucault argues that the idea of sexual orientation as an identity (being gay, rather than happening to have engaged in individual illicit sexual acts eg the sin of sodomy) was essentially an 18th and 19thc phenomenon, when a legal, medical and psychological set of discourses 'produced' the notion of homosexual as they were legislating against it and pathologising it.

It's always been there. Way back in the mists of time i studied it as part of a history unit at uni. Greeks, Romans, all pretty open minded. More of a terrible thing to cross societal boundaries than sexual ones.

It all stops being fun with organised Christianity really. Even then there are plenty of subcultures. Lots of diaries and evidence from texts throughout time really. Molly houses and specialised Stews (prostitute houses) all acknowledged from the 1600's. By the Victorian era there was a huge underground scene and the written pornography is very eye opening. Not only does it show sex between same sex couples, but often loving relationships. It's a very interesting history indeed.

Surely it's never been acceptable for very young children? 12/13 and up maybe, but I can't believe it's ever been ok to have sex with kids younger than that.

It started with the linking of object choice to identity and the creation of a sexual taxonomy. The word homosexual is relatively new. Sexual partner choice was not really linked to identity before that.

I second reading Foucault

Btw, there's obviously also the.... Overlap (English?) of gender, institutionalised and accepted genders / gender roles (more than 2 in certain cultures / times) sexualitily (well, if they were allowed to "live" a sexuality / engage in sexual acts)...

Homosexuality is prohibited in the Torah (see eg story of Sodom) but, like Queen Victoria, it seems to ignore the possibility of lesbians. That said, Ultra-Orthodox Judaism does also condemn lesbian relationships. The Torah is around 5000 years old, for reference.

There's quite a lot in the various Roman sources about homosexuality - Cicero uses it at times as a slur, but, as you say, depending on who was doing the penetrating, it wasn't a career ender for a general. There's certainly some sources that suggest, for example, that Julius Caesar had gay sex.

I do mean pedestary thanks! Lol

Yes focusing on who penetrates who... it was shameful to be penetrated (submissive) I think (was worried how I was allowed to phrase it on mumsnet so tried tiptoeing around it)

Doesn't seem there was the idea of equality in homosexual or heterosexual relationships as men of same age would have been shameful to be the recipient unless they were of what they considered lower standing, slave, foreign, poorer etc so wouldn't have been two men who both received/gave... which I started looking at this when religious argument of HIV transmission being higher in gay men was put to me as example wasn't a good thing... risk would have been lower (although obviously didn't exist anyway but say it had - would have been lower as only one recipient)

And yes pedophilia seems to have come in later as an idea... and been normalised in ancient times

And in the West, obviously. As others have said, it's culture specific. There are cultures, for instance, where the transition to manhood involves sex with older man as a rite of passage.

And yy Elementally -- when WT Stead wrote his 'Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon' in 1865 (shock journalism about the prostitution of very young girls in London, involving him buying a girl just to show how easy it was to purchase a very young virgin), the age of consent for girls was 13, and the men who were buying these girls wouldn't have identified as paedophiles. Stead's journalism was one of the factors that helped get the age of consent raised to 16.

heat there's various interpretations of that - that marriage could be contracted with a child (mostly female) but that consummation would not take place until puberty. Other writers argue that there were instances in which people in the ancient world did indeed have sexual relations/rape children