Not to understand why primary children aren't fluent in English after a year

[Claraetal]

I don't understand why primary school aged children, who arrive in reception not being able to speak English, are still considered as "English as Second Language" (ESL) for pretty much their whole time in primary school as far as I can tell. The teachers talk about them as if not being to speak, read, write English perfectly is a permanent state and I don't get it. Surely by year 1 they should be at the same level as everyone else. Let me try to explain why I am not insane... :)

I myself was moved to France with my parents as an 8 year old for a year. My parents are English and English speaking as were all of my friends before I moved. I was sent to an entirely French school at the start of the school year. It was a little tough but by Christmas I could speak French and some time between then and the end of the school year I was pretty much indistinguishable from the other kids.

As another and maybe better example, I spent some time in Denmark this year. There I spoke to English speaking families whose primary school aged kids had been sent to normal Danish language schools. They said the same thing. That is that after 6 months or so their children were pretty much fluent and after a year they couldn't really be told apart from their class mates. In these cases their parents couldn't speak a word of Danish on arrival and were still pretty terrible after a year.

I get it if the class or school doesn't have English as the majority language. In that case you are lacking the total immersion effect. But I am talking about our local schools where English is the only language commonly heard in the playground. I don't buy the story that it is because their parents don't speak English or that they don't speak English at home as that was exactly the same for me with French and also for all the ex-pat families in Denmark.

So what is going on?

I googled hoping to find some formal definition of what constitutes ESL/EAL. But apparently there isn't one, it's up to the school. So I think you will have to ask the school what their definition of ESL is.

My guess is that when you joined the school, you filled in a form in which you said you spoke another language at home. Since that form will probably never be updated, the children will be classified ESL for the whole of their stay in primary school.

If I'm right, the classification has nothing to do with their English ability, they could have been speaking English like a native on the day they arrived, but because of the form, they will remain classified ESL.

@A4710Rider
It's just a shame that people will accept children's educations are being comprimised for the sake of liberalism.

What do you suggest?
How do you think liberalism compromises the children's education?

MyOtherUsernameisaPun This applies exactly identically to me in France, the kids in Denmark and the (newly introduced) English language families sending their children to Welsh language schools. In short, I don't really buy it, well maybe a little bit.

OP I read your latest post after posting - basically it is a bit more complicated than you are thinking. Nearly all children are capable of learning 2 languages at that age, gradually, and if they are not learning both academically and how to communicate socially, there are other factors at play. It is possible that the school needs to look at whether they are meeting the children's needs.

I think that the use of and attitude towards languages at home has a big impact. There is surely going to be a big difference between children who go home and hear and speak their first language and those whose families use English pretty much all the time.

I am sorry this is one of the points I don't buy. There was no French in my home and the families in Denmark I am talking about never speak Danish at home.

A4710Rider

Well since these troublesome immigrants are currently holding together our health system, care for the elderly, working on the countries infrastructure, education system etc. I'm more than happy to provide extra funding to help their children integrate into the country. It isn't however relevant to the thread.

It's just a shame that people will accept children's educations are being comprimised for the sake of liberalism.

It's not for the sake of liberalism. It's refusing to abandon children who need more help to learn. It's not their fault they don't know English is it? Do you think they just shouldn't receive an education or something? If a child needed more help due to dyslexia would you complain that the other children are getting less attention?

No need to feed the troll... better stick to the subject of the actual discussion. Whether EAL children should be in English language schools (or Welsh or whatever else) is not the topic under question.

I think part of the reason is that the English curriculum carries on regardless. So a child who enters Reception with no English will be expected to access the Year 1 curriculum after one year in which, despite having made great strides in English, they will not have accessed the Reception curriculum in the same way as their native English speaking classmates.

We moved to France when DS1 was 7. He started school part way through the year with little French. He then repeated the year. By the end of that year, he was top of the class. He received no special support in school and was just expected to get on with it. We spoke English at home, watched English film/TV etc.

Claraetal

I seriously am struggling to understand how you can't understand that your experience is totally irrelevant. My gran lives till 85 smoking 20 a day (and drinking too much) does that mean I "don't buy" that smoking and drinking is unhealthy? One anecdote proves nothing. Do you seriously not understand that?

Clare I think you may be missing the astoundingly obvious point that people and situations are different.

I'm so happy that you were able to function well in French as a kid. But it doesn't mean anything in terms of this wider conversation.

There is quite a lot of research that suggests that while it takes kids about a year to become functionally fluent, it takes up to 7 years to develop their language skills to that of a native speaker, particularly in written work.

My mates cousins speak Urdu at home they only mix with other Asian cousins their is no white or block people In their family and watch Urdu tv on sky
They live in a Asian area were most others speak Urdu and even the schools will trot out somone to speak Urdu

So the your question is all wrong the question is why would they bother

They have no need

Same for traveller child born and bread here and sound like their from the back waters of rural Ireland

Lack of mixing

How do you think liberalism compromises the children's education

I've already explained it. Teachers have to spend more time with kids who don't speak English well, meaning the other kids have less time spent on them.

IMO, Non English speaking families, should be made, by law (totally unenforceable) to give their children extra English language tuition at home.

But that's never going to happen as it's probably racist or something.

It's seems of little importance to most people that our kids education is being harmed.

It's just a shame that people will accept children's educations are being comprimised for the sake of liberalism

There are a lot of English children in France, and the schools have to make special provisions to help them initially. The French parents will sometimes complain, if they feel their children are being impacted negatively.

My son has a boy from Japan in his class. When he arrived at the school 2 years ago he had no English and now, whilst I would say his English is very good, it is by no means at the same level as his native English speaking peers. I don't see how you can equate 5 year old child who has been immersed at home for 4 years in English with a child who has spent 30 hours a week for 39 weeks hearing and practising English.

You might think you were at the same level as your native French-speaking peers after a year but I bet your weren't!

Claraetal, so what you're saying is that there was no difference between you and the children who did have that French exposure at home?

I don't think it's necessarily a crippling difference, BTW, but to say there's no difference? I don't think that's accurate. You also have to take into account the individual intelligence/motivation level of the child. Perhaps you were especially adept at languages and it didn't bother you to pick up the additional vocabulary needed simply from the educational environment, but for a child who struggles to engage with school generally, this may be much harder and they may fall even further behind than they would if educated in their native language.

It's not for the sake of liberalism. It's refusing to abandon children who need more help to learn. It's not their fault they don't know English is it? Do you think they just shouldn't receive an education or something?

That's fine, as long as you're willing to accept that it will effect other kids education, which again, isn't their fault either.

If a child needed more help due to dyslexia would you complain that the other children are getting less attention

Of course not, we don't have hundreds of schools in the country where over 90% of the children are dyslexic.

@claraetal I have explained already that reception aged children will be developing language, reading and writing, skills in their first language at the same time as learning the second language. If the children are struggling then they are not getting the right supports. You had a reasonable grasp of your first language when you started to learn the second, and your brain development was also at a different stage in terms of learning ability so there really is no comparison. It sounds like you have a good grasp of languages but you need to do a bit more studying in relation to child development and learning

Agree it's down to not speaking English at home. And it doesn't affect all children equally. My daughter;s best friend speaks English as a second language. Her first language is Urdu and that was pretty much all she spoke when she started school. However, her parents are both doctors and can speak very good English. They are able to hear her read in English, help with homework etc.

Other children who have recently come to the UK may have parents who don't speak English or only very little English and may not even be able to read and write their own language, never mind anyone else's. So they are not getting ANY support at home because their parents just can't.

Aaaand it's time to stop. Claraetal/Rider is clearly enjoying this opportunity waaaay too much.

my whole family are welsh first language so the kids dont hear a word of english until they’re in school by the time there 5 they have started to read and write english and understand engish and can speak english very well almost as well as welsh.

It’s not necessarily as immersive as the experience of an English child in France or Denmark where they are going to be one of relatively few English people about.

There are places, especially in the North of England, where children can have entire lives outside lesson time conducted in their first language - shopping, healthcare, the extended family’s socialising, playtime, radio, tv, online browsing - all done in their first language.

It’s quite common in Yorkshire to meet people who were born here who have Pakistani accents for example.

is clearly enjoying this opportunity waaaay too much

Enjoying it? I'm merely speaking the truth. Sorry if the truth makes you feel uncomfy.

enid - the language development of children in bilingual communities (such as in parts of Wales) follows a different trajectory to ESL children. You can’t compare the two.