To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

[SoddingUnicorns]

Marched not matched

[trixymalixy]

Lol, truth hurts doesn’t it.

[SoddingUnicorns]

Yet so many happily matched under a banner of hate...

Unacceptable.

That said, no comment on the unionist marches involving the orange order and football hooligans? You seem very keen on cherry picking don’t you?

[SoddingUnicorns]

You’re not speaking the truth though? You’re cherry picking facts and being shitty because you have no actual arguments. I would suggest that that means you are the one who is hurting.

[trixymalixy]

You can search my mumsnet posts for my views on the orange order marches if you like.

Why is it unacceptable to say that a banner calling people scum is a banner of hate? And many people did march happily behind it.

[Lifesavingorange]

Scotland has one of the unhealthiest populations in Europe with high rates of child obesity and obesity in adults.

Yes it’s beautiful and I love it - I am Scottish - but so much spin comes out of independence obsessed Holyrood when the reality is without Westminster money Scotland would be very poor, and our deficit is nowhere near low enough to get us into the EU.

I also agree that the freebies such as tuition fees and prescriptions and baby boxes would vanish in a puff of smoke if Nicola ever gets independence.

Also, free tuition fees have meant that there’s a cap in Scottish universities on how many Scottish students they can accept and many very bright Scottish students now fail to get places at top Scottish universities in favour of international students who can pay the fees. Universities make a loss on every Scottish student who comes and need English and international fees to redress the balance.

So for every student who is helped by the free tuition fees there’s another who’s not getting a Uni place in a Scottish uni at all as a result.

[SoddingUnicorns]

Why is it unacceptable to say that a banner calling people scum is a banner of hate? And many people did march happily behind it

Did you read my previous post? I said it was disgusting, and also that they don’t speak for me. What else to you want?

My point about the OO and the hooligans is that it’s interesting you’ll call out Nat extremists, but not unionist ones. Hypocrisy isn’t a particularly attractive character trait.

There are hateful people on both sides of the divide. Sensible debate between people who disagree politically is impossible as long as patronising, sneering and cherry picking of facts is at play.

I’ve said repeatedly that it’s not anti English, it’s not exclusionary and it’s not hateful.

Why won’t you understand that?

[Lifesavingorange]

I should also add that the run up to the 2014 referendum has never made me feel so ashamed to be Scottish. The behaviour and attitudes of the yes side, tearing down posters, intimidating no voters, shouting down anyone who disagreed as a quisling coward, was just appalling. And a significant factor in why they eventually lost the vote.

Also yy to whoever mentioned the growth report. Ten years of austerity to get us in the EU?! That’s fine for the middle class National readers who don’t mind tax hikes or pay freezes as long as they can gaze at the Saltire waving from their local government building, but what of those who really cannot afford it? Who will lose their disability and unemployment benefits? Because even in socialist paradise independent Scotland, it’ll be the poorest in society who’ll suffer most from austerity, it always is. You don’t want to piss of the high rate tax payers as they’ll just fuck off to England and take their taxes with them. The poor will end up paying for independence and the worst part is Nicola and the rest of the SNP knows that.

[trixymalixy]

It would be hypocrisy if I didn’t call out the orange order etc. Except I have repeatedly on Mumsnet said the orange order marches are hateful and unacceptable. You can search if you like to see that it’s true, I already said that.

You can say all you like that it’s not exclusionary and anti English. I just don’t believe you. I’ve seen too much since the referendum to believe you.

[Nyx]

YANBU - I agree that Scotland has the chance of a better future than England. Or a different one, anyway.

If Scotland goes independent, hooray! But I wish the best of luck to the rUK, I genuinely don't want them to sink. If they want to find their way outside the EU and welcome trade deals with America which involve the NHS being sold off and food regulations being relaxed so that the US can sell chlorinated chickens etc, good luck to them. Good luck making trade deals with the rest of the world that will make up for what they are throwing away in the EU. But I do not want Scotland to be any part of that.

I am glad we in Scotland still have choices and would like to vote yes to independence in order to be able to make our choices ourselves. The majority of voters in Scotland don't want Brexit and it is being foisted on us. Our elected representatives are being ignored and sidelined (and sneered and jeered at, but I'll leave that aside). If we became independent we would have Scottish political parties which would decide policies for Scotland, not parties based in London which see Scotland as a region of UK - and a pretty despised one at that. I was so sure we were going to be a respected and equal partner after the 2014 indy ref, that was what we were told (except that I didn't actually believe any of that and as it turned out - surprise! - I was right)

[SoddingUnicorns]

Well first of all you didn’t acknowledge the OO being knee deep in the unionist movement until I raised it, but were quite happy to demand I justify extremists in the nationalist movement. That is hypocrisy. You only mentioned Nats, not unionists.

And I could say exactly the same about some unionists. I’ve been told to leave my own country, that I’m a traitor, that I’m a fenian. Lots and lots of hateful attacks.

What I’m trying to say and you’re clearly not understanding is that one side is not perfect over the other. People believe what they believe, but linking one side to extremists while pretending they don’t exist on your own side is not only hypocritical in the extreme, it’s also inflammatory and quite frankly pointless.

Anyway I’m out, I’m all for sensible debate but I can’t be arsed with someone who is just out for a row. So I’ll bow out.

[Nyx]

10 years of austerity mentioned in the growth commission report? I don't think this word means what you think it means. It doesn't mean austerity like we're having now. It specifies that spending will be higher than it is now. But you are just grabbing that word and claiming that it means cuts upon cuts from where we are now. It does not.

[trixymalixy]

Where did I say there weren’t any extremists on the unionist side ? I think you’re the one that needs to work on your understanding.

[trixymalixy]

Ah but it’s SNP austerity, just like SNP PFI if you don’t call it by its real name then it means something different .

The common weal think it’s austerity, the IFS think it’s austerity. Everyone think it’s ausyerity, except the SNP.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Reading through this thread is a perfect illustration of how divided Scotland is right now, with the independence question leading to extremely polarised and irreconcilable views. The rhetoric that comes out of Holyrood may be about what ‘Scotland’ wants, as though we are all in agreement and supportive of the SNP position, but the truth is we are deeply divided which makes for an extremely unpleasant atmosphere. Each side genuinely believes the other is out to ruin their country. I don’t see how our future can be bright until the inpendence issue is well and truly put to bed and we can start to unite and move forward together.

[Biggreygoose]

If I was setting up a business I see no reason to pick Glasgow/Edinburgh over Newcastle/Manchester/Liverpool.

Even after Brexit England will still have a far greater labour/talent pool by virtue of numbers.

It will be the same situation Dublin was in 20 odd years ago. The only way to be attractive to investment was to slash business tax. Worked for a while but then the bubble went. Dublin is still there, and doing ok. But a brighter future than major English cities.... Hmmm

[Namelesswonder]

The reason Scotland has free prescriptions is that it’s actually cheaper to provide free for all than to pay the administrative cost of means testing as England does. Think about who requires most prescriptions - the elderly, the poor, the chronically ill and children.

Also Scotland is a more socialist country than England - hence in Scotland higher rate tax payers pay more than in England to help subsidies the poorer.

[Itchytights]

Hahaha.

Really?

YABU

[trixymalixy]

Namelesswonder, all those groups you mentioned already had free prescriptions. All they have done is to give freebies to those that are wealthy enough to pay for them!

I keep hearing that it costs less not to means test. Can someone show me any proof of this?

Having said that I’m not actually against free prescriptions for all, I think it’s worth paying for even if it does cost more. I just can’t bear the misinformation around it.

[Lifesavingorange]

What I absolutely cannot bear about so many Scottish people is this misguided belief that Scottish people are just inherently different and better than English people. This came across so clearly in the run up to the referendum- so many Scots yesvoters genuinely believe that Scots are just better, fairer, more committed to social justice, than the English. Sooo much focus on what divides us from English people. This obsession with what divides people is the source of pretty much every human conflict since the beginning of time. Very troubling to see your own compatriots buying into it wholesale.

[Nyx]

Lifesavingorange, I don't believe that is the case. I don't believe people anywhere think that Scottish individuals are more kind/caring/whatever than individuals from anywhere else in the UK. The glaring difference is in the politics. England votes Conservative. They have voted Tory a lot in the last decades. Scotland does not. Tory policies are not 'better, fairer, more committed to social justice' and I'd like to see you argue that they are.

[Kokeshi123]

Lots of nice things in Scotland no doubt.

But a lot of the "free stuff" largesse is a) badly thought out and poorly targeted and b) only affordably because Scotland remains part of the union and is effectively subsidized. No way would it be affordable otherwise.

And immigration is less of a hot button issue in large part because there has been quite a lot less of it.

Scottish education appears to be in a poor state too.

[PolkerrisBeach]

SNP conference this weekend. Group somewhere identifies mums as target voters. Threads like this pop up.

We are not that different to the people in the rest of the uk, irrespective of what the separatists would have you believe.

[Nyx]

Trixy, you're not against free prescriptions for all. So why are you arguing about it? The report I looked at said, I believe, there are arguments for and against means testing but that they balanced each other out. So the SNP has chosen universalism to make sure everyone gets what they need.
www.lboro.ac.uk/media/wwwlboroacuk/content/crsp/downloads/reports/Means%20testing%20or%20Universalism_Final%20Report.pdf

[Nyx]

"But a lot of the "free stuff" largesse is a) badly thought out and poorly targeted and b) only affordably because Scotland remains part of the union and is effectively subsidized. No way would it be affordable otherwise."
How would an independent Scotland not be able to look after its people? Other small countries (nearly all of them, actually) have better social provision than we currently have, better wage levels, better health service provision and definitely better pensions. Why would Scotland not be able to provide for ourselves when nearly all other countries can? Scotland has got better resources than lots of them. More than half the countries in the UN are smaller than Scotland. They have control of their own economies. In general terms they have fewer resources than Scotland.

Why do you say Scotland couldn't do as well, if not better, than other similarly sized countries? Why do we need to be ruled from London? Why is that? I think you'll find if we were independent, had control of all our own revenues, spent on what we decided was important for ourselves, we would do pretty well. Can you tell me why we wouldn't? Please do because I'd love to know.