To be fed up of the obsession with Oxbridge?

[toucanjungle]

Both of my children go to very academic schools. From age of 14/15, they’ve had drilled into them that oxbridge is the goal.

Anything other than oxbridge or medicine/dentistry is seen almost as a failure.

I’m sorry but it’s just ridiculous, they’re both so so so much more competitive than when the teachers attended. Lots of these children are brilliantly clever and am sad that lots feel like they’ve failed if they don’t gain entry.

I went to a school like this. I’d never even heard of oxford (I went to grammar school, no one in my family had even been to uni) so was a positive for me.

It’s a great institution.

Not for everyone but if you’re aiming for oxford can’t be that bad surely. It’s not the schools duty to say actually you’re not going there you failure, it’s your duty to make sure your dc have good mental health through exams etc.

Well imo you’ll never know what you’re made of if noone gives you the chances in life. That’s all all of this is, a fight for a chance. It is competitive, if you don’t like it go to a non competitive school.

Sorry toucanjungle but some of your points are a bit off

• yes it is very advantageous in the job market, still

-no, teachers who went to Oxbridge are not all over 40/50. My colleague and I both under 40 and went there

• it is 'better' due to the amazing one to one tuition which is an experience that none of my friends at RG unis had. It is 'worse' due to the intense pressure and stress which suit some but by no means all.
• competitiveness entirely depends on the course. The course I took is actually less competitive now as fewer students have the required A levels.

Also Oxbridge is indeed used as a term IRL

It is worth pointing out that in the current system of funding and capped fees, Oxbridge represents phenomenally good value for money. The maximum annual fees of £9,250 are applied pretty much universally across the Russell Group but only at Oxbridge does this buy you the tutorial-based teaching system of around 1:2 or 1:3. Yes, this undoubtedly increases pressure, but it also ensures that students are less likely to get lost and slip through the net. Many colleges are incredibly wealthy and can afford to offer subsidised accommodation to their students, plus grants for books and often travel.

I don’t think this is sustainable. There is already talk of Oxford and Cambridge breaking free of state control and becoming totally private institutions, perhaps along with UCL, LSE, Imperial and KCL. For now at least, however, an Oxbridge degree represents significantly better value for money than most other elite universities in the UK.

Struggs That is not actually true

Many universities still have tutorial systems. Here's UCL's for you www.ucl.ac.uk/english/prospective-students

I stand corrected, pearls, but I notice that UCL tutorials are fortnightly rather than weekly.

I’d personally always take the Oxbridge form of 1:2 or 1:3 for preference; I learnt as much from my tute partners as I did from my tutors.

Oxbridge is aspirational. My DD is doing her GCSEs and has been told she should aspire to Oxbridge with her predicted grades.

I just want her to be happy. I don't think her personality will fit in there. It's not diverse enough in terms of ethnicity and I don't want her to be the only xx on the course...but I'm leaving the decision to her.

Of course I'd be immensely proud if she were to get in.... much like Harvard and Yale in America.

Yes but there are seminar groups for that. I really enjoyed the one to one experience - it allows you free rein to go off on a tangent without worrying that you're taking up too much time.

My school also put a lot of emphasis on Oxbridge, which annoyed a lot of my friends.

I've heard plenty of people talk about 'Oxbridge' IRL.

There's no doubt, Oxbridge is in another league as unis go - I think you are worked harder there than just about anywhere else. Most people I know who went there (all extremely capable) had a massive panic and nearly left in the first term because they are used to doing everything well and you are given so much work that they actually can't do things as well as they are comfortable with. For a lot of them there is also the pressure of suddenly being 'average' where they've always been on top academically!

I'm not bothered about my kids going to either of them (my dad went to Cambridge, my brother to Oxford), though I know my MIL is very hot on the idea and was a bit disappointed neither of her sons went to them, though they both went to excellent other unis.

I applied for Cambridge to do a choral scholarship but turned down auditioning for it in the end because ultimately I didn't want to do English alone and preferred combining with Philosophy, and also being able to study contemporary literature, which at the time, certainly, they didn't do there. I think I would have loved Cambridge socially, but I also think I would have just met people who were exactly like me, which might have made me too self-absorbed (or more than I am now!) and I met a greater variety of people at the uni I went to, which was good for me.

And if you are offered Oxbridge and decline in favour
of any other UK uni, you are an idiot.

Well you're a bit of an arsehole aren't you?

You have no idea the many reasons why a person might turn it down. Assumptions make you a bit of an idiot too.

Sounds like we both benefited from systems that suited us, pearls

I’m intrigued to know which other UK universities use a weekly tutorial system as the main teaching medium for undergraduates.

And if you are offered Oxbridge and decline in favour of any other UK uni, you are an idiot

It is statements ike this that put people off going because they are made to feel looked down upon.

One of my A-Level RS teachers went to Oxford and she was late 20s/early 30s when she taught me.

I was never much good at writing essays, so having to do one or two every week would've been hard for me at first. Then again, having such a small system, and face-to-face contact with a tutor/supervisor might've done me the world of good and they could've helped develop my technique. As it is, I didn't get in so it doesn't matter anyway and lucky I didn't have to do a dissertation for my course. That would have been hell on earth.

Oxford and Cambridge offer some of the best further education in the world so of course they are the ultimate end goal for students of a ‘very academic school’.

'Oxbridge' is the pinnacle of academic achievement, so of course all decent schools aspire to getting their students there.

I can't help feel that there is something of 'sour grapes' amongst some of those who paid out substantial amounts of money for their DC's schooling, with the hope and expectation that they would gain a place at Oxford or Cambridge, only to be sorely disappointed and, dare I say it, a little bit bitter.

@Thesearepearls Cambridge now uses STEP papers to sort people because all/most of the applicants for maths are predicted (or in the case of Maths, already have) great A level results.

Cambridge has used STEP in maths since 1987, not not a recent development :-) There used to be STEP papers in other subjects as well, now only the maths ones remain (though some colleges include STEP in their engineering offers).

The reason Cambridge uses these is that AA in maths and further maths is not enough to differentiate - there were over 4000 students with A* in Further maths last year compared to about 250 places to read maths at Cambridge.

I think the main driver in the increased competition is the increased number of students applying, which I think is a good thing as more students are thinking of Cambridge/Oxford being somewhere they could go (rather than not somewhere for "people like them"). There has been quite a lot of awareness raising, summer schools, outreach etc.

And also to help students prepare for STEP (especially if they come from schools without much experience) Cambridge has an online STEP support course (maths.org/step).

"'Oxbridge' is the pinnacle of academic achievement, so of course all decent schools aspire to getting their students there.

I can't help feel that there is something of 'sour grapes' amongst some of those who paid out substantial amounts of money for their DC's schooling, with the hope and expectation that they would gain a place at Oxford or Cambridge, only to be sorely disappointed and, dare I say it, a little bit bitter."

That is possibly true, but I still get the impression that some mumsnetters are a little bit snobby and give the impression that it isn't worth applying to university if you don't include one of the Oxbridge universities in the application process.

As I stated earlier, I have lurked on the Oxbridge thread out of pure nosiness and the vast majority of Oxbridge parents are lovely and not at all snooty.

A lor of us parents are fully aware of their children's capabilities and I know perfectly well that DD is not in the least bit "Oxbridge shaped".

I don't really understand OP's AIBU, tbh.

OP doesn't say whether her DC are at a fee-paying or state school but I would be willing to bet that as a very academic school they will publish their leavers' destinations as part of their marketing materials. I don't quite know why you would send your children to such academic schools and then be surprised when Oxbridge is promoted heavily.

I'd agree with a PP that Oxbridge is (currently) good value for money: offering fantastic education and opportunities for standard uni cost. My DD is currently at Cambridge for 5th year (PhD, having already done BA and MSci there). She's president of a society that's she's performed well in, and has travelled widely whilst studying, and lives in a stunningly beautiful place. Even the accommodation is reasonable - at least compared with that of my younger DD at a different uni whose accommodation is a lot worse and more expensive.
Also agree with others that at highly academic schools, highly academic unis are going to be promoted as an ultimate goal. Why is that a surprise? Though of course there are other great unis besides Oxbridge (but not quite as great!)