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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask you about witches

92 replies

DeepFatFriar · 08/06/2018 17:51

Isn't there something really powerful and positive about the idea of witches?

Women living on their own, in harmony with nature, self sufficient, with healing powers?

Is this why they were persecuted?

OP posts:
youngOffenders · 13/06/2018 02:11

@mirime

The "weak-minded" would certainly seem applicable.

"woman and Goddess-centered denomination of the Neopagan religion" - sounds fucking ridiculous.

speakout · 13/06/2018 05:44

youngOffenders I am not sure how all this impacts your day to day life.

Nor do I understand your need to wade in and belittle others like this.
People who are causing you no harm and having no impact on your life.

What satisfaction are you gaining?

tripYouOut · 13/06/2018 09:45

" I am not sure how all this impacts your day to day life."

Religion poisons everything.

IfNot · 13/06/2018 10:05

As I always understood it, the demonisation of witchcraft began at the same time as the growth of modern medicine.
I don't think all healers were women (although midwives would have been) and I don't think such a sustained assault on traditional practices was born out of any kind of jealousy of women's power or independence.
I think it's just that when something becomes profitable, the men in charge want to take it over. Photography and filmmaking are other good historical examples of this.
So, I reckon the reasons for getting rid of traditional healers would have been mainly economic. In general if you follow the money you find the answer.

speakout · 13/06/2018 10:39

Religion poisons everything.

While I agree wholeheartedly that religion- Abrahamic faiths in particular- is a destructiove force, I can't see how a solitary Wiccan has an impact.

( I am not Wiccan or religious btw)

youngOffenders · 13/06/2018 13:58

"I can't see how a solitary Wiccan has an impact."

Surely the same could be said for a single solitary Jew, Christian or Muslim yet you agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment.

Of course some religions are better or worse than others and this changes over time from Crusades and Papal Inquisitions and systematic child abuse to Jihad and terrorism but "wading in and belittling" is unfair and incorrect.

Why is my opinion "wading" yet yours would be 'voiced'? Thinking someone weak-minded for their religiousness is not belittling.

Shielding religion and the religious from criticism or question is its greatest trick but it's something that is acceptable now. Of course one religion in particular gets very violent when you do question it or draw cartoons

TopBitchoftheWitches · 13/06/2018 14:01

You need me for this, I believe Grin

no help whatsoever

speakout · 13/06/2018 14:05

youngOffenders you are arguing with the wrong person.

I am an atheist.

youngOffenders · 13/06/2018 14:09

I'm not trying to argue - just understand.

You said you didn't see how a solitary Wiccan would make a difference. They make a very small difference but the more of them there are the bigger difference they make.

I also wanted to say that there was no wading or belittling.

speakout · 13/06/2018 14:13

youngOffenders.

laughed until tears ran down my cheeks at the thought of an adult declaring that they were a witch

sounds fucking ridiculous

No belittling? Just trying to " understand"?

I think not.

I have zero interest in entering a discussion with you.

youngOffenders · 13/06/2018 14:15

"I have zero interest in entering a discussion with you."

Ironic. It's what we're doing.

Yes, an adult saying they're a witch is fucking ridiculous but you're right, they need help, not having fun poked at them.

speakout · 13/06/2018 14:18

IfNot Exactly.

It's tied up with feminism- male witches or not. I welcome male witches but we can't deny the female angle.

PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks · 13/06/2018 14:47

youngOffenders ODFOD. Why is it deemed okay to ridicule someone's belief or religion on here?

PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks · 13/06/2018 14:54

I need help? Seriously? I bet Gerald Gardner's spinning in his grave.

speakout · 13/06/2018 15:26

youngOffenders can be safely ignored.

mirime · 13/06/2018 17:35

@youngOffenders hardly preying on the weak-minded though, Wiccans don't proselytise. If someone comes across Dianic Wicca, becomes a solitary Wiccan and practises alone I fail to see how they're preying on anyone.

Also in Wicca, literal belief in gods/esses is not a requirement. I've met atheist Wiccans who only 'believe' gods/esses as symbols.

Most Wiccans I've met value independent thought and don't believe in blind faith, though it's such an umbrella term that it's generally considered unlikely that you'll ever meet two Wiccans who agree with each other on Wicca, what it is and how it's practised.

mirime · 13/06/2018 17:39

@youngOffenders

A solitary Wiccan is one who is not part of a coven and who practises alone. Most Wiccans are probably solitary eclectic Wiccans (or practise alone and follow their own version of Wicca), so it's not the same as a solitary (meaning one single) Muslim, Jew or Christian as you can't edit the fact that they have holy books, religious leaders and a greater or lesser hierarchy telling them what to do and they're actively discouraged from making up their own version of their religion.

Lethaldrizzle · 13/06/2018 17:58

I quite fancy being a witch

speakout · 13/06/2018 18:19

Lethaldrizzle

Nothing to stop you,

alltoomuchrightnow · 13/06/2018 18:45

Can you imagine if someone came on here and said they had tears running down their face because they met someone who declared they were a Muslim?
Or a Christian?
Or a Hindu? etc....

ApocalypseNowt · 13/06/2018 19:02

I quite fancy being a witch too.

This thread is really interesting btw!

Elphame · 13/06/2018 19:10

I quite fancy being a witch too

The craft has a lot to recommend it Smile

LadyDeadpool · 13/06/2018 19:21

I suspect YoungOffenders is of the bridge dwelling type.

I'm an eclectic Witch, it is part of who I am and the focus of my beliefs. I respect others religious practices and their beliefs and don't mock them unfortunately the same is not so often true when it comes to Paganism and witchcraft with other religions.
I work in harmony with nature and the elements and have huge respect for the earth which gives all life. To me it is far more logical to worship the earth we walk upon and which sustains us than to worship an invisible deity who judges everything we do.

Greypaw · 13/06/2018 19:24

I'm a solitary Wiccan and have done a bit of reading on witches. It does seem it was overwhelmingly women who were persecuted as witches in the UK (although not all of course), and there were a combination of reasons including misogyny, religion and the uncertainty of the civil war. Single women were particularly seen as threatening; if there was no man to make sure she stuck to a godly path, there was a worry she might get up to all sorts. Of the women who were persecuted during Matthew Hopkins' hunts in Essex, many of them were vulnerable widows or single mothers, or daughters of single mothers. There were also the cunning men and women who had an degree of influence in communities.

At least during the Hopkins trials, it appears that people in communities looked for cause and effect when there was illness, death or bad luck in the community; if someone suffering from one of these had recently had some kind of run-in with a (usually) single older woman, they might blame that on her. For example one of the more famous trials involved a woman who had declined the village midwife's care and not paid for a previous service from her. When the woman's baby died, she blamed the midwife for killing the baby in revenge using witchcraft. Others would then align their own bad luck or illnesses with contact with the accused, and things would snowball. Women who were named were thought to be tortured into making confessions - Hopkins famously "walked" his suspects until they were exhausted.

Some villages invited witch finders into their communities to route out witches if the village had had a run of bad luck. Again these were often women living alone (not always) whose bodies were searched for marks that would "prove" they suckled imps. Anything could be used in evidence against them, it seems.

BettyBaggins · 13/06/2018 19:37

Many 'witches' were just the wise people, men and women, 'one estimate places men as the victims in about 15% of cases', who understood nature, seasons, maths, biology, astrology....some of them may have offered healing, knew herb craft, knew how to plant their crops at the right time. Those that didnt, who maybe weren't as lucky to of inherited that knowledge became jealous of their crops and gains and accused the wise ones of witchcraft of which the new tax collectors were happy to dunk in ponds and burn to death because self sufficiency didnt support increasing tax collection. The rise in witchcraft trials can be related to the birth of capitalism and the new wave of religious zealotry and sexism.

Many, many people were genocided during the reformation years under the guise of 'witchcraft'. Extreme feminist theory claims up to 9 million across Europe. I think thats probably more than were but it was a genocide and it is also important to remember that people are still being killed for 'witchcraft' in developing countries to this day. Some witchcraft is very dark, murdering albino children for magic is not cool.

Some believe the word witch comes from the word wicce which used to mean wise.

I personally refuse the label witch, though I have been considered as such and took the label when younger and studying paganism and druidism but now, I am just a woman who respects the natural world and tries to be wise. Wink

What some used to call magic is now called science as we understand our world more. A mixture of both is a beautiful thing to have in your life and the pagan appreciation for a goddess is certainly empowering for women especially in the western world were religion is very male centered around one god and thats it. Eastern goddesses are worth a look at too, they have some amazing characters like kali, shakti and tara. Check 'em out.

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