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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to pay tax as an "Accidental American."

234 replies

budinbloom · 08/06/2018 15:06

Help! Is anyone facing/has faced this recently?

DH is a dual UK/US national from birth. (English Dad, American Mum, born in the US but left for the UK as a baby and never lived or worked there since). He received what we now know is a "FATCA" letter recently and after copious googling and increasing panic, it looks like he is supposed to file tax returns to the US and potentially pay tax on the funds he holds in his ISA. Luckily, they aren't threatening to close his account....yet but the internet says that is what's happening in other countries!

We're still flapping but becoming resigned to the fact that, we have to pay to enter a foreign tax system in the first place before we can exit and renounce his US citizenship if we are to even plan for our future retirement. We're still at the going backwards & forwards stage - should we/shouldn't we? It's so unfair? What do we do? How would they know? We can't lie/nor do we want to? At the same time, we don't want to pay ANY tax to a foreign government on our already taxed UK income. He's always been PAYE here! Is the final solution renouncement but this process which will involve backfiling tax returns which we should never have to do, in the first place and will costs thousands (yes, we've got a few general quotes for the work).

We really want to keep hold of his stocks and shares ISA. Do we only really need to sell the funds in them but keep the actual direct company shares? No-one seems to admit to having anything other than cash ISAs but is that because they have already sold them in advance of filing for the first time? No idea what to do without paying even more for expensive legal/tax advice.

OP posts:
Andthenshesaid · 08/06/2018 19:51

In all seriousness though, what are they actually going to do if you refuse or ignore the letters?

Presumably you wouldn’t be able to travel to the US again, but other than that, what powers do they have?!

ArfArfBarf · 08/06/2018 19:53

I can’t remember for certain but I think that technically they can get HMRC to collect as part of the aforementioned tax treaty.

Lisette40 · 08/06/2018 19:55

www.angloinfo.com/blogs/global/us-tax/how-can-the-irs-enforce-tax-collection-overseas/

Personally I don't want to test the IRS to see if they can or can't! I also don't want to leave estate management issues for my kids when we die.

Lisette40 · 08/06/2018 19:56

It's a real nuisance and headache. My best to those dealing with it at the moment.

PossiblyPFB · 08/06/2018 20:00

As PPs have said, it’s worth getting the proper advice for your personal situation.

If you are on PAYE generally speaking he should not owe anything as the rate of tax is higher in the UK. However it is worth paying a professional to assist you in filing any back tax form submissions that are due as the IRS forms are insanely complex.

ISAs can be problematic which is why I do not have one. Rather I have a SIPP which is acceptable.

Please get proper advice. Smile

hellokittymania · 08/06/2018 20:05

Yes, please get an advice from a lawyer on this. I do know ex patriots who have not lived in the US for a very long time who have been caught up because they have not paid taxes in the US.

Lisette40 · 08/06/2018 20:10

hellokitty did they get fined? We're worried about my sil as she has inherited and she hasn't filed in years.

Semster · 08/06/2018 20:22

hellokitty did they get fined? We're worried about my sil as she has inherited and she hasn't filed in years.

When we filed back taxes we weren't fined, if that helps. We were delinquent by about 8 years one time, and 7 years the other, IIRC.

Lisette40 · 08/06/2018 20:27

Semester thanks for your input. we were delinquent too but come forward to file and had no fines either. Sil filed years ago as a student but then stopped as she lives in the UK. I'm wondering what happens if the IRS come across her due to her US inheritance. If they find you before you voluntarily file tax returns that might be a problem, possibly.

budinbloom · 08/06/2018 20:28

I do think my American MIL should have made him more aware but it’s futile to blame her head in the sand approach. I’ve never seriously given it much thought until we opened the can of worms through googling. When Boris Johnson renounced, wasn’t the main driver his political ambitions rather than avoiding the IRS?

I think he’s going to proceed and formally engage a tax accountant who specialises in US tax. £800 + vat for the main return per tax year! To be fair, they do come across as extremely competent but at that price x 6, they should be! They will advise us on filling the fbars ourselves. We have been doing a 180 almost every day for the past few weeks over whether we need to submit such a lot of personal data that even the Inland Revenue doesn’t require from us. The UK is hardly a tax haven paradise is it? It’s not as if we can even have US financial products without an address or anything!

Omg! I didn’t realise that paying down our mortgage would ever be a bad thing to do just because of the change in sterling/dollar exchange rates since we took it out. So, because the pound has fallen in value over the years, it looks as if we have underpaid by say £80k (made up figure) and that “gain” is taxable! What the heck does that mean? You shouldn’t have a mortgage or any saving/investment product in the only country that you have resided in?

This is so stressful. My 78 yr old MIL keeps apologising which isn’t helpful. So, we’ve become rapidly aware that it is hugely complicated. There is NO WAY we would have known 15 yrs ago that we cannot invest in stock & shares ISAs. The more I think about it, the more I want to rant so this thread is a much needed vent!

OP posts:
Lisette40 · 08/06/2018 20:35

My US mil is a hippie who emigrated to the UK and thinks 'why worry?' so she never mentioned it to dh. She kinda coasts through life causing chaos! We didn't even get an 'oops' from her, never mind an apology Grin

hellokittymania · 08/06/2018 20:59

Hi, I don't know if they were, sorry. I am also paying late taxes in the UK, I am British but was expat in Southeast Asia for years and I grew up abroad and had a residency in the country where I grew up, the US Ha ha ha. I had to pay taxes while I still had my green card though. My salary also comes from the United States, but an accountant deals with that so I don't know how that works. It's not a very high salary, and I also have a visual impairment, so I think that plays into how much tax I pay in the US.

hellokittymania · 08/06/2018 21:01

By the way, this was the first year I file taxes in the UK and I still have not sent in the paperwork, again I have an accountant helping me, but I really hope I won't be fine. The accountant said it's up to Học MRC to decide. The accountant said I should have been filing for the past three years..... ooops

Troels · 08/06/2018 21:07

We file ours for free using TaxAct online it's free for federal returns but you have to print it off when you've completed them and post them to the US, I send them tracked and signed for. Luckily we don't earn enought to pay any US Tax as well as UK tax.
Took me ages to do the very first return, now it's much faster as it saves your previous year and prompts you to add things as you go.
www.taxact.com/applications/free-file

lljkk · 08/06/2018 21:09

I think it only cost $9 to file last year (electronically). But I'm never sure I've declared everything right. I know I don't owe IRS anything, but persuading the byzantine software of that is stressful.

HMRC made me file self-assesment for $12 in US bank account interest, mind. And pay £3 tax on it. Just as ridiculous.

BritInUS1 · 08/06/2018 21:14

Try this company, they will be able to get you straight www.greenbacktaxservices.com/

BritInUS1 · 08/06/2018 21:16

hellokittymania

If you are living in the UK and employed by a US company it's unlikely you would owe any tax in the US, you should be paying taxes in the UK

bluerunningshoes · 08/06/2018 21:18

how did he not know?
even I got a 'facta compliance letter' from my bank(s) years ago. plus it's been in the news quite a bit.

but yanbu
the rules are shit and very intrusive.

TalkinPeece · 08/06/2018 21:23

I've never filed.
I've done the calculations for every year since I became a UK taxpayer and the IRS owe me money for every year (because of children, mortgages and low earnings)
If they come to get me I'll claim that money.

I have travelled home many, many times on my US passport
I've been called up for US Jury service
and the IRS has still not noticed

a family member started to file after many years
and because the IRS owed them money every year,
after three years they got a letter from the IRS asking for no further returns Grin

FATCA hits the rich
the rest of us need to line up our ducks and then play the game

expatinscotland · 08/06/2018 21:28

I never got a FATCA letter. The only account I have is a joint one with DH who is British and I got it after I was a British citizen. There's zero chance I'd ever owe them tax, though.

WickedGoodDoge · 08/06/2018 21:28

I renounced a few years ago when the impact of FATCA was becoming clear. Would have cost me a fortune otherwise and was giving me sleepless nights (literally). I have no desire to go back to the US so although annoying, wasn’t that big a deal to me. My DC are dual and at the moment they both say they want to emigrate to the US after uni, but we’ll see what happens. Grin

hellokittymania · 08/06/2018 21:29

Britt in the US, I have a trust in the UK, so I pay for that. The accountant asked me about my earnings in the US, but I believe the accountant who does my organization's taxes was also doing mine. I am still learning how to do everything, so I will make sure.

TalkinPeece · 08/06/2018 21:33

I have UK friends who missed their own parents funerals because of the fear of FATCA

I take the view that I know what I don't owe so could bail myself out if I got arrested at JFK
when my closest family members die I'll probably renounce Sad

Treesybreezy · 08/06/2018 21:35

Um I vaguely knew about the tax citizens everywhere thing but you have to actively renounce citizenship??

Am I potentially in the shit here? My parents married in the US, mum was US citizen, dad not (both deceased, mum never naturalized) I was born in the us. Moved to the UK as a toddler, on my dad's passport (I think). If I am a citizen, should I be proactive? How likely is it that they track me down?

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