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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why child maintenance is automatically reduced due to subsequent children?

162 replies

freegazelle · 08/06/2018 10:41

This doesn't affect me personally, but I came across this rule on mumsnet and its just been bugging me.

If I coupled up with a man who had DC from a previous relationship, I'd take them into account when working out if we could afford children, just as I'd take my own DC into account. Why should his responsibilities towards his existing DC automatically be reduced after we have another child?

Other countries don't apply this in the same way - in the US it depends on the State and in Canada CM is not reduced unless apply for "undue hardship" (as far as I understand).

Am I missing something?

OP posts:
Graphista · 09/06/2018 16:40

It's wrong and shouldn't happen. As it is cms calculations are rarely enough to cover half the costs of raising their child.

Step children absolutely should NOT be included in calculations because THEIR parents are financially responsible for them NOT their step-parents.

Myboys2018 - frankly if your dp can't afford to AT LEAST be paying maintenance at the same level as before he moves in then he CAN'T AFFORD TO MOVE IN! It's not compulsory and he should be prioritising HIS children from HIS previous relationship over YOUR children! Cms calculations DO take into account the NRP's living expenses that's why it's ridiculously low! That he/you both also tried to reduce it MORE sickens me. YOUR son is the responsibility of you and your ex NOT your new dp (although I do agree this should ALSO be taken into consideration for benefits adjustments. They should only be reduced in terms of the elements applied to you as an adult not your child).

"In that case, the NRP's partner's income should be included for CM." Excellent point - bet you'd hate that Myboys!

"He couldn't afford to pay his ex half of it every month as we would lose our massively and the boys would be affected as we would risk losing our home" then he shouldn't move in with OR have more DC with you unless he increased his income.

Fwiw I don't think eg my ex's new wife should be responsible for OUR dd - BUT as it is currently it's unbalanced in their favour. Her EXPENSES (more DC) are taken into account BUT her INCOME isn't. (Lightbulb moment for me there)

Childrenofthesun

No your child shouldn't be worse off - but NEITHER should his first child/ren! He chose to have another DC, you chose to be with someone who already had DC. That HAS to be a consideration BEFORE more DC are decided upon. Each parent has 50% financial responsibility for each child, her (and certainly her partners) earnings are irrelevant - unless you want YOUR income used in calculation for cms?

New children should NOT be included in calculations because the NRP should NOT be having more children if they can't afford to at least keep paying the level of maintenance they are paying for their original children.

Re tax credits 2 child limit - should never have happened in the first place. The majority of claimants "self regulate" as it were.

But even MORE so because it's APPALLINGLY sexist. It's mainly women who are RP's and therefore claiming tax credits for the original children. IF the govt insists on keeping this UNJUST rule then it needs to be applied to BOTH parents. It's administered through hmrc so no reason they can't check on both parents. If NRP ALREADY has 2 children from an earlier relationship they shouldn't be allowed to claim for subsequent children from new relationships. It's the only way for it to be fair.

Something has to be done to rein in those men that bounce from one relationship to another making more and more children and taking NO responsibility for them.

My ex never paid regular maintenance and exploited every loophole he could. He's gone on to have 5dc with 2nd wife and despite a large detached house, new cars and tech for them both, 2-3 holidays a year etc tried to plead poverty when it came to our dd, his eldest. (There are other issues too and dd basically feels like she's been all but forgotten by him).

For him to choose to have FIVE more dc without even CONSIDERING the effect (not just financial) on dd is SO selfish.

"Blame him. Not the system." Except the system exists BECAUSE NRP's (usually men) DON'T take responsibility for the children they are half responsible for creating UNLESS someone makes them. That being the case the system needs to be properly fair.

"It is a rigged game and society is allowing women and children to be financially and coercively abused." Completely agree

Zsazsa I can accept maintenance changing if NRP's income genuinely unavoidably changes BUT not if they CHOOSE to take on the responsibility of more children (especially step children).

"Benefits aren’t reduced for maintenance payments" that was only brought in BECAUSE NRP's were NOT reliably paying maintenance. When I first split from ex and was receiving benefits ONE maintenance payment meant benefits administrators ASSUMED maintenance was being paid in full and regularly - it was a bloody nightmare proving that wasn't the case!

"later children shouldn’t suffer for being younger." Later children wouldn't have to if their parents were responsible and didn't have them unless they could afford them. They're not compulsory. Why should earlier children suffer?

"So it's not a gender issue, it's a person issue!" While I also know nrp mum's who've behaved just as poorly as many nrp dads, I'm sorry but it IS a gendered issue because MOST RP's ARE WOMEN and the govt knows that we just get on with it and deal with the shit because we've always bloody had to!

Spangly - he's not "overpaying" he's paying more than the csa MINIMUM but there's no max payment. Good that he does.

The amount doesn't HAVE to reduce because you and he didn't HAVE to have another child - that was your choice.

In 15 years as a Lp I've NEVER come across a properly organised campaign to get the govt to enforce even the current rules! Let alone improve the current system! Partly of course because as well as the financial responsibility RP's have the practical responsibility - so doing all the graft of child rearing too - we're too bloody knackered to campaign! Hell we even vote less in GE's!

Whereas NRP's (being mostly men and not having their lives constrained by raising children), vote more, earn more (and so pay more in taxes), complain more if they think they're being unfairly treated, have the time AND energy to research and exploit loopholes, are VERY RARELY properly held to account if they DON'T pay (this is even more the case if they SOMETIMES pay or pay a nominal amount - my ex exploited that particular loophole well)

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 16:41

A pp mentioned getting something like 3.82 for her child. Maybe that is all the man could afford. But as it doesn't cost £8 a week to look after a child the difference HAS to come from somewhere. So presumably the mother makes up the difference. She doesn't get to say she can't afford to contribute more.

sharkirasharkira · 09/06/2018 16:45

Hang on, I totally get what you mean OP and it is unfair but isn't the maintenance payment reduced only for subsequent children LIVING with the NRP?

So, if someone moved their new gf and her 3 kids in, the payments for previous children would reduce but if they were paying maintenance for 3x children with different mothers, none of whom they live with, all those 3 mothers should get the same? At least that's what the gov website calculator suggests - maintenance for different children not living with the NRP is the same. Only children (biological or not) living in the NRP's household reduces the payments?

WhiskeySourpuss · 09/06/2018 16:50

Only children (biological or not) living in the NRP's household reduces the payments?

Yes however in the case of non biological children they are or rather should be receiving maintenance from their biological NRP & also being counted for the disregard element (which is the same percentage per child as actual maintenance) of their RP's new partners maintenance for their biological children so in effect any non biological children living in the NRP's household is receiving 2 lots of maintenance whilst the biological children they pay maintenance for are receiving a reduced amount - how can anyone think this is fair? Probably an idea thought up by an NRP

Jux · 09/06/2018 16:54

Whiskey, back in the 70s I think it was. There were many complaints from women I knew about how they had to pay with their own money for their partner's children. It seemed terribly unfair to me (I was 18ish) but even then sometimes privately thought "but you didn't have to get together with a man who already had children".

So I suppose you could say that's one which Women's Lib failed to grasp the implications of? That there was a fight over this, I do remember, but I don't remember the particulars.

WhiskeySourpuss · 09/06/2018 17:05

Jux yes it was & it wasn't actually all that long ago that this changed as my friends DH has a 22yo & her income was taken into account for his maintenance calculations.

Then it changed to the new percentage system around 2004 I think (15 for 1, 20 for 2 & 25 for 3 or more) but only the NRP's income was taken into account & there was no disregard for step or subsequent children but maintenance was taken into account for RP's benefits.

Then around 2010 some halfwit thought that step & subsequent children should be taken into account (I actually have no issue with subsequent biological children as they are his or her responsibility but the step children thing is a joke) & sweetened the bitter pill by disregarding maintenance for the RP's benefits.

And now we have the new all singing all dancing CMS who are unbelievably worse than the CSA & to top it off we have to actually pay for the abysmal service they provide Hmm

Bluelonerose · 09/06/2018 17:12

I think the biggest problem personally is that for maintenance and benefit terms step children are included twice.
Say a couple has 2 children then df leaves.
Mother claims cm for 2 children get tax credits for 2 children (I'm only using tc as an example)
Df meets new woman with 2 dc and moves in with her. He is now responsible for 2 more dc and the 1st woman cm will be cut although her tc etc will stat the same.
New woman and df claim tc together yet new woman will also be getting maintenance for her dc (assuming here!)
So new woman dc will be getting cm from their df and is getting cm from original man as he now has to pay less cm for his biological dc. Either way his dc lose out.
(Hope that all makes sense!)

I really don't know the answer though. Not include step children? I can't see that working.

Maybe the real issue is that men are allowed to pay so little. Maybe if child maintenance was set at a flat fee of £100 per month and get those that are work shy to do £100 worth of community service if they don't pay it.

Andrewofgg · 09/06/2018 17:20

Stepchildren whose father is dead/disappeared/in prison, anyone?

holdonasecond · 09/06/2018 17:24

If NRP ALREADY has 2 children from an earlier relationship they shouldn't be allowed to claim for subsequent children from new relationships. It's the only way for it to be fair

Ok so just imagine the nrp then splits with his current partner and now has two exes and two lots of children? There are now two RPs. The second ex wife might be struggling financially especially from the recent divorce and the first ex wife might be doing alright, but only the first lot of children get financial support from tax credits and child benefit. If second children from a new marriage shouldn't affect maintenance then why should first children from and old marriage affect tax credits?

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 17:27

Whatever he has should be shared fairly between his biological children. And if he has more he should be expected to make it work without reducing payments to existing children.

adviceonthepox · 09/06/2018 17:27

The opposite is also true though. If a RP moved in with a new partner her CM is not reduced. If a NRP moved in with another person then her income is not taken into account. Everyone has a different situation and it's just a shame that some parents don't so what is best for their child and will only do the bare minimum. Its such a shame that so may parents make it all be about money Sad

freegazelle · 09/06/2018 17:51

@stealth

Yes, this is what women have to do.

It just drives me insane. As someone said, the tax credits thing is also deeply unfair. Women are confined to claiming help for 2 children, while men can impregnate dozens of different women and its fine (of course I'm not saying it should apply to men because that would be unfair on the mums - it shouldn't apply full stop).

The only decent thing UC has done is correct the previous bizarre system where single mums had work conditionalities when their children reached school age, but women in couples didn't.

It just drives me crazy that at every point single mums are blamed as being responsible for their "predicaments" while men are only asked to pay "as much as they can afford". Why this concern for non resident fathers, while under UC, single mums are sanctioned until they need to go to food banks and their children go hungry.

Children do not only cost nappies and clothes. It's the cost of an extra bedroom and childcare. The amount that some men on perfectly decent salaries are paying is ridiculous. They should pay a fair amount for their children, even if it means they need to make sacrifices. That's what being a parent is. And that's what single mums do.

OP posts:
Childrenofthesun · 09/06/2018 17:52

No your child shouldn't be worse off - but NEITHER should his first child/ren! He chose to have another DC, you chose to be with someone who already had DC. That HAS to be a consideration BEFORE more DC are decided upon.

So the resident parent could decide to go on and have more children knowing that there would be less money to spend on the first child but the NRP has to continue to spend the same amount of money on the first child regardless? No that isn't fair. What you are suggesting is that someone's spouse/partner could leave them and then they can't form another relationship with someone who wants children, or who is only prepared to have them if they are second-best to any existing children? That somewhat limits the options for the NRP.

I appreciate that there are some NRP that take the piss and they shouldn't be able to but there are plenty who just want to do the best and be fair to all their children. I think there is also often an assumption that the NRP is the person who has chosen to end the relationship, which is certainly not always the case.

Jux · 09/06/2018 17:52

Most parents don't make it all about money. It's just that this thread is about CM so that's the aspect being discussed.

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 17:53

Yes people see children with their mothers. And they judge the mothers. Rarely do they judge e the fathers or if they do its that they're 'wonderful' for playing happy families with a new woman with her own children . This needs to change.

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 17:55

Children the resident parent usually has the hungry mouths and the clothes to buy and clubs to pay for right in front of them. They make the choices knowing that stuff needs to be paid for. The NRP has a vague idea that children cost money but it's not real on the same way.

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 17:56

A relative has children by her ex. One summer he said he'd pay for their pens and pencils etc for the new school year. On the same day she'd just got back from the shoe shop, buying them all new shoes and trainers.

ohreallyohreallyoh · 09/06/2018 17:58

So the resident parent could decide to go on and have more children knowing that there would be less money to spend on the first child but the NRP has to continue to spend the same amount of money on the first child regardless? No that isn't fair

I think it reasonable that as a parent, you make a decision as to whether you can afford to have more children when those children will be resident in your own household and you have an understanding of the impact an additional child may have on household,finances.

What isn’t OK is making a decision which will impact on the income of another household.

Moleskinediary · 09/06/2018 18:03

And maintenance is not taken into account for benefits- the whole system is broken.

freegazelle · 09/06/2018 18:03

@children

NO, they just decide to have more children when they can afford it while giving the same support to their eldest!!! Just like most people! The vast majority of people don't decide to have more children knowing that it would reduce a MINIMAL amount of support their pre-existing children already get!

I just couldn't imagine moving in with a guy who had kids, sitting down and saying "right, we can afford to have children if you half your maintenance payments". Who would do that?

OP posts:
Childrenofthesun · 09/06/2018 18:04

That is a bit of a generalisation though Stealth. It will be a different situation for different families. There are probably families that share these costs.

I think a lot of people approach this from their own experiences, as indeed I do. For example it is my DH and I who are supporting our stepchild through university, although she has always been resident with her mother, despite the fact that we are by far the lower wage earners, but I'm sure most people would assume it is the resident parent who bears more of the cost. Ideally, I'm sure, there would be a system that works around each family's circumstances but I'm sure this would be prohibitively expensive and near-impossible to enact.

Childrenofthesun · 09/06/2018 18:07

NO, they just decide to have more children when they can afford it while giving the same support to their eldest

How do you know that? Who knows what things the elder child didn't get to do because the younger child was born to the resident parent? Maybe if they'd been only children they would have gone to private school, or had more expensive clothes bought for them or done more extra-curricular activities but didn't because a sibling came along. It's just harder to quantify that sort of reduction in spending than it is to quantify a reduction in maintenance.

StealthPolarBear · 09/06/2018 18:08

Yes fair point children. I'm talking anout a particular type of NRP. Obviously there are others. My friend is a stepmim and I hope/expect /believe they treat her sdd as their own. She certainly seems to

freegazelle · 09/06/2018 18:09

@moleskin This might be unpopular, but I do think maintenance should be taken into account for benefits, but only over a certain amount (say 250 or something) or it would act as a disincentive for men to pay up, as it did before; the maintenance amount would simply come off income support and men viewed it as a treasury scheme. I think its fair enough that it should be treated separately to a certain point.

But yes it does seem odd that someone getting a grand in CM gets the same as someone who gets nothing. But obviously these amounts of CM are pretty rare.

OP posts:
Summerisdone · 09/06/2018 18:10

None of it makes any sense imo.
My ex has now moved in with his new partner and because she has two kids already, his maintenance payments have been reduced for our child, but the partner is receiving maintenance payments for her children from their father... how on earth does that make sense?