Aibu to think black women are still dealing with the European version of beauty

[Metoodear]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5802731/Journalist-apologises-sexist-Serena-Williams-interview.html

Just thinking about why the feelings are Why Serena would be worried about the other lady’s “model” looks my question is to whom she is quite slim and has smallish bum and tbh that would not be seen as that attractive to May black cultures also in a thread about niki manij people often white posters views her as over weight in many black cultures a size 14 would actually been seen as you needeing a good feed

Small bottoms and boobs and a stick think figure would not be viewed as attractive
Different cultures have different standards of beauty

I've never read an interview with a sportsman where his looks and body type were discussed. Only ever in terms of health and fitness but not in the aesthetically shallow way women's bodies and looks are.

Wayne rooney used to be one of the best footballers of his generation and had lots of abuse about his weight and appearance. His nicknames included shrek and mr potato head. Its not just a female thing

I've never read an interview with a sportsman where his looks and body type were discussed.

At least not to their face. I've read articles theorizing on whether a particular baseball players paunch was a sign he was back on the steroids, or breaking down how a male swimmers wingspan & torso length might be an unfair advantage, but it's no where near the way female athletes bodies are spoken about, where even weightlifters are expected to look like ballerina's.

To be fair it's not like the majority of European women find European standards of beauty very easy to navigate either, because they're designed to keep you chasing an unreachable ideal.

I’ve never found any black woman attractive, just not my bag I guess.

Thank God for that.

YY velour - to sell products !!!

I love Serena's body shape. She's strong, muscular and looks amazing. I'd rather look like her than Sharapova any day. I'm white BTW.

However I agree with you. WOC are being held up to a Westernised idea of beauty - in body shape and facial features, in skin colour and tone, in hair texture and style. I'm glad the interviewer got pulverised on social media; what a lazy, facile and reductive question to ask.

YANBU OP

I love that she described her body as a weapon - she's amazing, strong, fierce and I think she's beautiful

I suspect that races (and I'm well aware that science can't define race) tend to find their own more attractive. Probably boring psychological evolution as opposed to 'the patriarchy'.

I think there's often some patronising virtue signaling when people talk about, for example, Serena Williams' beauty. Obviously I'm only a 'beholder' but to my mind she isn't.

I don't think there's any big conspiracy going on and don't think black women really care about versions of beauty. They have (or overlap) their own.

I wonder if anyone thinks slim white women would 'deal' with ideas of beauty if they lived in Africa.

For what it's worth, I buck the trend I guessed about at the top. I married (35 years ago) a mixed race man and am a slim white woman.

I totally agree OP. The European idea of beauty is so influential even on a subconscious level.

I’m white with mixed race DS aged 4 and DD aged 2. I’ve tried to consciously subvert this ‘ideal’ where I can i.e. they have black dolls, books with black/mixed race fanilies etc. I go on about how beautiful their curly hair is while combing etc. But my son really surprised me the other day when he randomly said “I wish DD had straight hair”. When questioned as to why it is apparently because princesses have straight hair. Cue me running about the house looking for the princess and the frog dvd.

Pencilsharpenerer

Do you not think European beauty ideals also carry weight in Africa? I read an interview ages ago with Lupita Nyong’o where she talked about how this made her feel when growing up.

I used to live in Mexico and received uncomfortable and to my mind weird complements about my pale skin.

@pencilsharpener

Plenty of black women care about how their beauty is subjected to racist standards. Easy for you to say what they care about and don’t care about - how can you so confidently say that? Does sitting next to “a mixed race man” allow you to opine about race?

FWIW I am a mixed race man, with a Black mother, and I don’t think it gives me the right to say what all black women think or don’t think.

I do have evidence that black women have written extensively about being held to/judged by Caucasian standards. So just because you believe it not to be an issue, as a “pioneer” of race mixing, does not mean that it isn’t so.

I apologise for my peeved tone but am a little pained after a lifetime of hearing people with a small tenuous personal link to black society, then go on to explain how “I don’t get this issue, most black people don’t care about X”.

The worse thing is that Sharapova is not a very good Tennis player, but Serena has to be compared year after year to someone she pretty much always beats.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is not just down to social conditioning.

The subtext of the questioning to Serena was, I believe, "you may well have all these titles, be the GOAT, have married a billionaire and have a healthy child BUT wouldn't you rather look like Maria?" And worse, for short, "Maria is more deserving of success because she is beautiful".

This demeans both women. Serena for the reasons people have described, and Maria because it is reductive - her (earned) achievements are nothing in relation to her (unearned) looks.

It makes me sick. Wayne Rooney is an outlier - it doesn't happen to men.

@AlbertaSimmons spot on

@Nzou

"Do you not think European beauty ideals also carry weight in Africa?"

No. Not really and I lived there for 12 years (2 different countries) as opposed to my opinion being purely guesswork.

@GinDADDY

"Does sitting next to “a mixed race man” allow you to opine about race?"

I said "married" so fuck off with "sitting next to" but yes, it does.

I also didn't say I thought I knew what all black women think. I suggest you're less of a twat and concentrate on reading.

I didn't say I was a pioneer so why did you quote that?

Dickhead.

@pencilsharperner what you have written is nonsense.

First of all there is actually evolutionary evidence for the opposite e.g. people partner with people from a different ethnic background as their off-spring have more diverse genes, so are healthier. Most white people and lots of Asians have Neanderthal genes so it isn't even with people of the same species humans have done this with.

Secondly as PPs have pointed out you have absolutely no idea as a white women what standards of beauty myself, my relations and non-white friends' adhere to.

Thirdly your relationship may be unique in your circle but not in mine, and that includes my family, as I have plenty of friends' and family whose parents aren't the same ethnicities who met in the 60s and 70s.

@GinDaddy you have nothing to apologise for. People need to be called out when they talk nonsense about a group of people.

@pencilsharperner so living on two countries out of the 50+ in Africa tells you what all black women think?

And your the dickhead.

That main point here is that SW and many of the rest of us want to be asked about our career not how we look.

@BlueBug45

When did I say anything about all black people?

It's "you're", by the way and there's no need to refer you yourself using "myself" unless the subject and object are one and the same. Why do you put apostrophes randomly at the ends of words? I find it hard to take your opinion seriously.

I said nothing about my uniqueness.

Anyway, this is one of those intelligent debates MN is renowned for.

Enjoy it everyone.

It's "you're", by the way and there's no need to refer you yourself using "myself" unless the subject and object are one and the same. Why do you put apostrophes randomly at the ends of words? I find it hard to take your opinion seriously.

Ah, the old "your grammar is bad" re-tort. The one true sign that someone has been talking shit and can't continue to defend their opinion.

thehulks - it's such a cliche isn't it? Not eloquent enough to address the issue so i'll attack the grammar.

If we were all in a room together i suppose it'd be a physical insult. You've got a big nose anyway, so nerr

@Hulk

I don't feel the need to defend my opinions because I didn't pretend that they were anything more than that but yes, I do judge people's intelligence on their literacy. On an Internet forum there's little else to go on.

Of course, I could have posted many links showing that people tend to marry within their 'race' but it seemed hardly worthwhile as Google isn't something I have unique access to. It's on the rise but unusual.