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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To deny my mother access to her grandchildren? What would a court say?

49 replies

IsThisYourSanderling · 26/05/2018 16:39

I have a twenty month old son and am due another baby in November. I haven't seen my mother in nearly a year - I've told her she's not welcome to visit us until she acknowledges and confronts her mental health problems / changes her behaviour. So basically I'm 'denying access' to her grandchildren.

My reasons are many; I posted a thread when DS was 11 weeks old that contains some of them. Her behaviour has always been odd and unpredictable, she has an unaddressed paranoid personality disorder which dictates most of it. When I was a child she was extremely loving and nurturing (hence my feelings of doubt and guilt now) but there was a lot of instability - periods of homelessness (actual roaming of the streets and living in tents etc when I was six); constant moving around, taking me out of school; lots of changing of names; lies about my paternity. We were always on the run from something. I admit I carry resentment about a lot of this (in particular the dad thing), but had never intended to let any of it interfere with her relationship with her grandchildren.

It's the continuing low level mad and unwelcome behaviour that has led to me pulling up the drawbridge. She got worse when DS was born (see previous thread), and I suppose I still feel pretty personally pissed off by how much she let me down since I became a mother - I could have done with some support and instead got unhinged behaviour, vanadlised mail, laptops in the bath, and then just a long and dreary refusal to acknowledge any of it, or take steps to change, despite my pleading. I think becoming a parent myself has made me far, far less tolerant of her behaviour too. Situations I previously would have considered my duty to manage for her soon came to appear ridiculous. Our last meeting ended in a row in a car park about private detectives (with me holding DS throughout - a ground rule I'd attempted to lay down was no discussions of the paranoid stuff in front of him), after which I put her on a train home. Instead of going home she went to live in Victoria bus station for a few nights before ringing my husband to ask for her bus fare the rest of the way. Her casual way of normalising this sort of behaviour is amazing and always makes me doubt myself a bit - I'm often left thinking that perhaps I'm overreacting and that going to stay in bus stations is actually a perfectly valid detour (she said she as 'people watching'). All of her visits have involved me treading on eggshells, being pounced on with accusations of conspiracy against her, and just bucketloads of tension; and she'd wander the house a fair bit at night, which drove me particularly nuts because I would be up half the night myself feeding DS, and it was very distracting and unsettling. She also has a lot of pseudonyms/aliases and doesn't like it when anyone questions this. They are 'precautions'. I'm not able to write to my grandmother for any reason, as she intercepts her mail. I'm however continually suspected of conspiring against her in this way (which is how she justifies reading any letters). I don't think my last birthday or Christmas cards to my grandmother got through my mother's firewall.

She's never offered any practical or real emotional help to me in my adult life, apart from for a few weeks after my c section with DS when she stayed and helped with the laundry. She had a selfish reaction to my wedding announcement (also the wedding itself), wasn't really interested in my PhD while I was doing it or once I got it (when she asked if I ever wondered what the point of it was), I didn't go to any of my graduations because I had no parent to invite, and she helped to derail my early career in London by turning up homeless on my doorstep and expecting me to house her in my sublet room, then disappearing onto the streets when I couldn't. She was missing for many months before turning up at her mother's, where she has lived ever since (13 years or so). She's never held down a job or had any friends or a partner, all because of the mental health issues she refuses to acknowledge. She is entitled to a state pension now, but isn't claiming it, because of paranoia issues.

Occasionally she asks to visit. Occasionally she says I'm blackmailing her. I'm mostly NC with her, have blocked her number, but I did write to say I'm pregnant again. The very sporadic contact I do make with her always consistently asks her to consider putting us first and see a Doctor so that we can be a family. I say that the door is open if she can just take that first step. She calls these 'nasty letters' and says it's blackmail.

AIBU? I don't think she's aware that she could pursue this matter of access legally, but what would a court say, I wonder?

One additional factor is that I can't physically be around her now, the thought makes me feel very sick and anxious. So contact with her grandchildren would have to be without be there, with my husband. I'm obviously keen to protect them from any unpleasantness and confusion, and to me that means no contact with her.

Long post, extra fries to all those who got through it Smile

OP posts:
Ohmydayslove · 26/05/2018 18:01

viley thst sounds dreadful how so? Although obviously you probably can’t say as outing.

Gloria means well abs I think her attitude follows on from her dds death so maybe feeling she could loose her own grandchildren??

IsThisYourSanderling · 26/05/2018 18:06

Thanks so much everyone, it's a relief to hear that she has no rights in law. Obviously she's not in any position to pursue a case against me anyway, and I don't think she probably cares enough to anyway - meaning, she values her symptoms more than her grandchildren and would care more about not attracting attention to herself than making any bid to see them. So no, it was just a hypothetcial question of mine really, after talking to a French friend whose mother had threatened legal action over grandchildren in the past.

Yes, she's delusional and will never see a doctor. That's clear now: a year of me saying that she can be a family with us and see my DS, all she need do is make a doctor's appointment and start treatment, has got me nowhere. I blocked her number when she briefly invented a 'counsellor' she'd been seeing and made up some very mad lies about what the 'counsellor' had been advising her to do. It was a massive insult: that is how seriously she took my very earnest and heartfelt pleas to get help.

I used to feel a lot of guilt and sadness and pity when thinking about her, but lately it has morphed to rage and disgust, frankly. This has possibly made me a bit hard hearted, but maybe it's time for that now anyway: perhaps it's what I need and the natural end of our relationship.

It's sometimes very hard to reconcile all this with the sweet and caring mother she has been to me as a child (aside from the dangerous situations she put me in, etc etc). But she has always been incapable of adult relationships. I think me becoming an adult was always going to call time on our relationship eventually.

OP posts:
IsThisYourSanderling · 26/05/2018 18:07

Oh, and annandale, that's horrific, I'm sorry and relived for you and your DS in equl measure Flowers

OP posts:
Ohsuchaperfectday · 26/05/2018 18:08

Nothing is clear in law and these things are subjective.

It was a debate in Parliament nothing else.

SaltyPeanut · 26/05/2018 18:34

It all sounds so very soul destroying. You must be very strong to have put up with this for all the years you have but sometimes in life you have to accept that there are some people who are beyond help. Your mum sounds like such a person. You feel all this responsibility and you keep trying to help fix your mum but she doesn't want help, that is obvious. You can never force her to seek help no matter how much you love her or how hard you try. You cannot fix her.

None of it is your fault. It's not your responsibility to save her, you can only save yourself and it looks like you've been doing that incredibly well despite all you have endured.

It's time for you now, you, your DH and your babies.
You have to give yourself permission to disengage, to protect your little family and let your mum find her own way.

Flowers
MizCracker · 26/05/2018 18:49

Oh my goodness, I can't believe what she's put you through.

I think it's fair to say that she doesn't have the nous to follow through with any threats of legal action, so try to just dismiss that as an empty threat.

It's also OK to consider her beyond help and go completely NC. I know that might sound cruel, but it's also realistic. Good luck with it all Flowers

Pippylou · 26/05/2018 18:58

The problem with behaviour like this is no-one really ever appreciates how bad it can be and how perplexing it is to deal with, even as an adult.

Massive kudos to you for getting your life together. You do sound a lovely lady.

Sadly, you can't ever fix someone else's mental health, it has to come from them. However much that sucks. Look after yourself.

oddquestion100 · 26/05/2018 19:29

Grandparents rights are a myth. If you were divorcing and your parents or PIL could prove they had a significant, enduring relationship with your child, they could probably get access visits because the child would have a rights to that relationship continuing. Of course, this is not your position and your mother couldn't provide evidence that it was. Even if it were, how these visits would be enforced is anyone's guess as no one would send a parent to prison over it. She sounds truly awful.

wejammin · 26/05/2018 19:37

@ohsuchaperfectday with respect the law is very clear. For anyone to be able to make an automatic application for a Child Arrangements Order (the order that determines what used to be called residence and contact) they must have existing parental responsibility. Grandparents do not have this without a court order.

To obtain an order OP your mum would need to submit an application for permission to apply for an order. You would be able to oppose this. To determine whether to grant permission the court would look at a number of factors including the relationship between the applicant and child and the prospects of success in the application.

On the facts provided I would be surprised if a court would order that contact take place.

Namechange128 · 26/05/2018 21:26

One other thing here... Without wanting to be too gloomy, make sure that you are prepared for a worst case scenario with robust wills for you and your partner, including proposed guardians for the children (discussed with them in advance). Just in the very unlikely event that anything were to happen to you or even more if to you both, you want to make sure that your children will be fully protected.

Flobalob · 26/05/2018 21:51

The court would only allow access if they already had a strong, existing relationship and it's in the child's best interests for that relationship to continue.

This is one of the main reasons that my children will never meet my mother.

Mine sounds exactly like yours. From Googling it looks like she has something like narcissistic personality disorders. My mother is convinced people are out to get her, nothing is ever her fault - it's always somebody else's, she lies through her teeth, she makes up all sorts of shit. You get the picture. I live my Mum because she's my Mum but my life is so much easier and less stressful when she is not involved in it. I have moved house, hide under the radar and even told my neighbours that I was moving somewhere completely different so that if she did show up and ask them they'd inadvertently send her on a wild goose chase. As far as I'm aware, she doesn't know that I have kids but they are well briefed on what to do if she ever shows up. They know that she is my "naughty Mummy".

TarragonChicken · 27/05/2018 00:24

I just can’t help wondering though, given your description of her, whether she is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia
Oooh, let's all suggest armchair diagnoses based on little evidence and less knowledge! Hmm

toomuchtooold · 27/05/2018 06:40

I remember your original thread. Did you get your peaceful Christmas?

As I understand it and as PPs have said, your mother could in theory apply to the courts to get a decision on whether she would be allowed to apply for access, and that her application would most likely fall at the first hurdle because she doesn't have any sort of ongoing relationship with your son.

If I were you though I would think about maybe starting to record the things she's saying and doing that show how ill she is. So hold onto the letters and messages at least. My experience of people like this is that they can often pull themselves together and behave appropriately in front of authority figures, so if I were you I would want some record of her behaviour, as a way of demonstrating to other people what she can be like.

I have to say more generally, I don't know what other people in similar situations feel about this but the way the law works right now (looking for a significant relationship between the grandparent and child) I think it is a massive incentive to drop contact with a potentially abusive (grand)parent as soon as you have your first child. What I mean is, when my DTs were born, I thought I was doing the right thing trying to facilitate a limited relationship between them and my mother (I never let her be alone with them, but she stayed with us and met and played with them) but if I'd thought that would give her the slightest chance of getting access in the event that our relationship deteriorated I would never have let her near them. Perhaps I'm being overcautious but the idea that she could get unsupervised access to my kids scares me.

NewYearNewMe18 · 27/05/2018 06:53

Could I just point out :

Without wanting to be too gloomy, make sure that you are prepared for a worst case scenario with robust wills for you and your partner, including proposed guardians for the children (discussed with them in advance). Just in the very unlikely event that anything were to happen to you or even more if to you both, you want to make sure that your children will be fully protected.

Making a will is always a good idea, however you cannot 'will' your children, this is another myth perpetuated on MN. You can appoint guardians of course, but a court will decide if those persons are appropriate or not. Ditto someone may come forward with an offer of guardianship, but a court will decide if they are an appropriate person or not.

Example: You appointed Aunt Mary as a guardian, willing, fit and able. Only you haven't updated your will and Aunt Mary has now a limiting illness , the court will appoint because Aunt Mary isn't capable of fulfilling the role.

oddquestion100 · 27/05/2018 08:18

too much I agree with you about the law back firing and discouraging relationships from starting in the first place. Although the circumstances that are meant to trigger this law are limited to divorce.

Namechange128 · 27/05/2018 11:42

@NewYearNewMe18 hadn't even considered that you could 'will' your children, is that a thing? However that's why you can certainly propose guardians - courts can and do take into account the parents' views if stated, especially if the proposed guardians are both suitable and happy to do so, and there is a reason (as here) that a close family member might be unsuitable.
Would still strongly recommend it, OP!

IJustHadToNameChange · 27/05/2018 11:54

You're doing the right thing OP.

Grandparents have to automatic right of access to grandchildren.

As your 'mother' has no discernable income (sponging off your grandmother) and is of no fixed abode, it's unlikely that any court would grant access, even if she could scrabble the money together for a solicitor and she could get over the paranoia to trust the system enough to bring a case.

PPs are correct though. A copper bottomed will with a child guardian directive with guardians and back up guardians who would pass a social services suitability inspection are a must.

IJustHadToNameChange · 27/05/2018 11:55

To = no.

Grandparents have no automatic right of access to grandchildren.

Sorry, fat thumbs. 😳

Wallywobbles · 27/05/2018 14:40

In France grandparents do have rights but they have to be able to prove that they already have a relationship with the kids.

My exMIL has 30 days a year access.

Ohsuchaperfectday · 28/05/2018 21:59

30 days that's a lot if you don't want that and alot to work in to daily life!! Ie all dh holiday time would be taken up...

What level of relationship.. If gp are tricky trying to prove relationship could mean it's easier not to have any access.

I'm happy for dc to see theirs a few times a year. Any moreover and they the gc start to moan and get upset.. It would be awful..

IsThisYourSanderling · 29/05/2018 18:34

Thanks for the advice all (and kind words).

Toomuch we did get our peaceful Christmas Smile And then mae the mistake of going to the in laws the next year Grin It'll just be quiet family Christmases for us from now on.

My mother is doing the annoying this of sending me innocuous chatty emails at the moment, which I'm not responding to. I think I should probably just block her. But it's hard for me to block with a direct provocation as a reason, it makes me feel like I'm the one in the wrong. I suppose the fact tht she's writing to me under one of her false names is good enough though.

At the moment she has access to our family Instagram account, originally started specifically so that grandparents could keep up with what DS is doing. But now it just creeps me out, because it's basically perfect for her: she gets to analyse every last detail of every photo, scanning for evidence that would confirm her various theories, and that to her is much, much better than any real relationship with us. Last week she bobbed up out of nowhere to say that DS's foot looks swollen in one of the pictures and we should get him a tetanus shot Angry

As for armchair diagnoses, she's not schiophrenic no. But she has a cluster of personality disorders that completely rob me of a mum (paranoid, avoidant, schizoid). All armchair diagnosed by me, since she would never ever see a doctor, probably not even if she broke her leg.

OP posts:
IsThisYourSanderling · 29/05/2018 18:35

made the mistake*

OP posts:
IsThisYourSanderling · 29/05/2018 18:35

So many typos Blush Apologies, I'm toddler-wrangling

OP posts:
KERALA1 · 29/05/2018 18:39

Read the glasshouse by Jeanette someone. It's her true story of growing up with two parents like your mother. Jaw dropping. Well done op you have nothing to worry about no court would grant her access. Also would she have the money / staying power to pursue through the courts? Doesn't sound like it.

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