to think the nhs being reliant on immigrants is nothing to be proud of

[traciebanbanjo]

It's pretty selfish draining so many medical professionals from poor countries like the Philippines and Nigeria. So why is it almost always presented as a good thing?

The solution would be to fund places correctly over here but nobody in power ever looks towards the long term.

I spent weeks last year with a friend in the Phillipines who was in the final stages of cancer. The level of nursing care was shocking and Im assuming its because their best nurses, who are very good, are abroad in countries like the one I live in.

Wealthy Philippinos get very good nursing care, I imagine. Very income-unequal society.

Sashh - so would something like structuring as higher level / degree level apprenticeships be appropriate? It seems to me an obvious idea but I've never heard anyone else mention it.

Especially the Phillippino nurses-most experienced and knowledgeable nurses. Would definitely trust my care to them

Some of my sons home based carers are qualified Filipino nurses. I'd trust them with his life and mine.

Wealthy Philippinos get very good nursing care, I imagine. Very income-unequal society

We were in a private hospital. The best there is. It was awful to the extent I rented a house and we went there for the last few weeks with the help of private nurses.

If wealthy Filipinos get better nursing care its not in hospital or in the Phillipines.

@Sashh, don't care how it changes, it just needs to. If the govt/NMC want nurses degree-qualified, then they need to ensure the a newly revamped SRN factors this in.

Nursing apprenticeships have become a thing now. Training to band 4 level. These 'advanced practitioners' are being trained in everything nurses can do and, guess what?!, they are being paid three grand less.

the majority of NHS staff are still British especially outside London.
After five years on a work permit they used to be able to start citizenship applications (not sure about now). They don’t list country of birth. Your Indian born doctor and Zimbabwean nurse are on the list as British.

I am aware that my experience is mine alone, and not necessarily indicative of the whole country, but as a final year nursing student, I cannot fault the education and skills of the vast majority of the non-British nurses I have been working with.

It is embarrassing at times, something I have discussed a lot with other students, how our levels of training in England pale in comparison to those of (particularly) the Portuguese and Filipino nurses on the wards. I find them an invaluable source to learn from, and improve the frankly lukewarm attempts at teaching skills and A&P that we get in the UK.

Now again, this may just be the way my university itself approaches the nursing curriculum, having never studied elsewhere I can't say for sure, but the knowledge that foreign workers in the NHS pass on to us Brits preparing to work in the NHS for the rest of our lives, is invaluable. As OP states though, it is another matter altogether when you consider whether it is fair for the strongest healthcare staff to be enticed (?) away from their home countries... an interesting debate you have begun here :)

I do suspect the "but what about their home country missing out" is thinly veiled ra cism. Many LEDC's are suffering because their government's do not provide anywhere near decent facilities and health care is two-tiered. It has nothing to do with 'their' HCP's working in the UK.

Also to add we spend a lot of time in hospital and are on friends/family terms with the nurses, quite a few of which are Filapino. They told me that working here has enabled their dc back home to get the best education and standard of life that they could never have achieved if they were working there, so it very much does have a positive impact on the country of origin.

The NHS doesn't drag immigrant workers here kicking and screaming .... their choice to come to UK, same as the choice of UK-trained doctors and nurses going to work in other countries. I think perhaps the medical system should change so that if you train in a country then you work in that country for a certain minimum period. Perhaps a bit harder to justify in the UK now that students pay tuition fees, but in the past they were trained at taxpayers' expense.

All the GPs at my local practice are British
All the nurses at my local practice are British
Most of the staff at my local hospital are British
My point was that London may have a greater incidence of non-British staff reflecting its ethnic makeup but this is not general countrywide

The NHS has always been reliant on immigrants.

It got West Indian nurses and midwives from the Windrush generation - didn't let them train at the nicest schools though and shoved a load of them onto jobs the UK staff didn't want. Permanent nights, enrolled nurse not registered and so on.

In the 60s and 70s my mum arrived and the place was full of Irish nurses. Her night shifts were Irish staff, black staff and her (EU national). All the day staff were White British.

The NHS has never had enough UK staff - recently it's been Filipinos, then Portuguese and Eastern Europe for nurses, loads of Indian GPs are coming up for retirement.

Unfortunately, we live in a country whose priorities are fucked up. We can thank the Tory government for that.

It's not the Tory government that's fucked up it the aspirations of the British that is at fault.

We have the NHS and training on or doorstep yet so few British people want to become Dr's and surgeons. It's down to foreign students who have a better work ethic who come here and 'take our jobs'.

Instead a lot of people seem happy to take the easy route and get a NMW job and spend the rest of their lives complaining about everything.

Also to add we spend a lot of time in hospital and are on friends/family terms with the nurses, quite a few of which are Filapino. They told me that working here has enabled their dc back home to get the best education and standard of life that they could never have achieved if they were working there, so it very much does have a positive impact on the country of origin

It also has a negative impact in that very young children, toddlers even, are brought up without their mummy and daddy because they’re overseas workers. Being an overseas worker comes at a very big price for the workers and the loved ones left behind despite what can be done with their salary.

It’s a horrible situation to be in.

TeisanLap That almost supports my argument - that Filipinos are willing to leave not only their country but their families in order to achieve a better life. Something not many British people would do.

We have the NHS and training on or doorstep yet so few British people want to become Dr's and surgeons. It's down to foreign students who have a better work ethic who come here and 'take our jobs'.

God, I’d love to train as a surgeon. They wouldn’t train me in a month of Sundays though, as I wouldn’t get past the GAMSAT. Fair enough really! It’s so, so competitive to get into medicine in this country, yet we’re short of doctors . It’s especially difficult as a mature student, which is silly, as a lot of mature applicants have actual, hands on care experience. Is it maybe easier to get into universities in some other countries? So we just employ people from there instead of training them.

The problem is, that a lot of medical students come straight from school where they were most likely top students. There is definitely an elitist side to studying medicine, in some places. The realities of the job then don’t live up to some students expectations.

The long hours, hard work and general gore of surgery are not glamorous at all. My relative (already mentioned) is a surgeon and he says that there is no such thing as work / life balance in surgery. Why would the top students in the country want to do that, unless they have a specific calling to do it? And how many of them really do? It worked in the past maybe, when one partner stayed at home to do childcare, when paying for daycare wasn’t nearly so common. Daycare for a baby where I live is £££ and even a doctor’s salary goes nowhere.

I don’t know what the answer is, but a lot of it does seem a bit backwards to me. It’s such a vital service.

The problem is, that a lot of medical students come straight from school where they were most likely top students. There is definitely an elitist side to studying medicine, in some places. The realities of the job then don’t live up to some students expectations

Sorry, I mean in the uk^^

like sash I am old enough to have been trained at a time when we were paid as we trained. As someone from a very poor background I could never have afforded to train otherwise. Luckily I had high enough grades as we as practical care assistant experience to get to train at this hospital as they were also starting to do degree route. (1977).

There were evaluations going on as to the merits and demerits of each system as to what the end product nurse could do. after I finished my training I maintained an interest in this as well as the roles state enrolled nurses had .

Some results if evaluation

Degree nurses studied theories in more depths but arrived on wards as nurses with less pracrltical.skills. Higher dropout levels as newly qualified nurses due to the reality of working on a ward whereas trad trained nurses higher dropout early because too much responsibility sometimes too early... e.g. student nurses left in charge of wards st night.

used to be there teirs hcp... RGN SEN And care assistant. .Nursing was something you learnt on the job mostly with some class work.

Roll on the years and the SEN has been abolished... but guess what...we still.needs zHCP with basic caring skills so now we have NOW etc.

Care work in general is no longer seen by our young people as a desirable job never mind one with good career prospects. I work now in learning disabilies sector and it's exactly the same. Loads if factors...unsocisble hours, poor pay ( less pay than even some retail work ) , lots paperwork and the threat (real or imagined) of die consequences if you even look siderways at someone.

We do theoretically have enough people in this country to staff our care vacancies.... but they just don't materialise. My OH had to go recruit in mainland Europe to get enough quality applicants to fill posts for the organisation he worked for.

According to Wikipedia, in 2015 the NHS was the world's 5th biggest employer in the world (after the US military, Chinese military, Walmart's and McDonald's) and it grew by 300,000 staff between 2010 and 2015. It's therefore not surprising that it needs to rely on immigrants, given that the populations of the US and China are rather larger than that of the UK.

I agree that we should do a degree or higher apprentice styled programme rather than a degree.
Pay the studets a basic wage and in return for training they must work in the NHS for 5 years.
In wales if your degree is funded by the NHS you must wor for 2 years or pay all your fees back.

It's not draining them. Many of these countries have an excess of staff who can't get jobs

I think we should drop degrees for nursing and allied professions. Go back to vocational diploma qualifications and get caring nurses back on the books not career driven "a cannula removal is beneath me" types.

In many LEDC's it is very commonplace for 1 parent to leave the country to better the lives of the extended family. Children are brought up in multi generational households so although it is probably not ideal it is a sacrifice they are willing to make and I have great admiration for them because of it.

Even in UK I don't think it is that unusual? Lots of posters here have a Forces partner and they are deployed for 6 months of the year, a lot of the time without regular communication. I think that is probably more damaging for children because we don't have an extended family household culture.

I’ve never heard a degree educated nurse say they are too clever to remove a canula or change bed sheets.

At uni, the only difference between the diploma and degree students was the dissertation. We still spent 2300 hours working full time on clinical placements.

Physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech therapists, radiographers and dietitians have been degree educated for a number of years and we never hear that they are too educated. In the USA, they are becoming professions that require a Masters degree.