Salary equalling less than minimum wage

[Auntieaunt]

I'm in my early to mid twenties - graduated uni not so long ago in a role that requires any degree - without too much detail it's entry level project management.

I started my job a few months ago and I work alongside others similar in age to myself in the same role. I enjoy my job as it's varied, my colleagues are great and does have rewarding aspects to it. However the Hours are just killing me.

Since Monday I've had 31 hours scheduled plus travelling/working in the evenings. I've had to quit all of my hobbies/volunteering as I'm never home and quite often I have to work weekends.

For my age my salary is fairly decent but after all the hours we're expected to put in I'm on minimum wage/sometimes less.

I've mentioned this to my line manager and he says that the experience/training we get is invaluable. Everyone around me works crazy long hours and after I had to have a day off last week during a family emergency as annual leave (worked 50 hours with that day off) I'm feeling seriously deflated.

Im not sure what to do. The responsibilities we get with this role will look really good on my CV so I'm worried to speak to management. I feel that I am good at my job and I don't mind pulling my weight but it's deflating that I earned more ph as a teen waitress.

Any advice?

This is the exact reason I'm reluctant to ever take a salaried job again, the big figure seems attractive especially if you think you'll only be working 40 hours a week but then when you end up doing 60+ hours it just isn't worth it. The only saving grace was being able to go home on days we were overstaffed and still getting paid for it, which was rare. However if it's something you want to progress in then maybe starting on a low wage and working hard is what you have to do. If it's covering the bills and leaving you a decent bit of expenditure then what's the problem I guess?

People who are laughing, saying "it's normal" and "welcome to the real world" are missing the point.

It's illegal to earn less than minimum wage whether you're paid by the hour, the day or paid a salary. The method of payment is irrelevant - you still need to earn minimum wage/hour over a single pay period and your employer is expected to top up your salary to ensure that happens (or cut your hours accordingly).

Personally I hate this increasingly common culture of working 15 hour days and just accepting it as normal. People who insist on leaving on time and not coming in early are overlooked and told they're uncommitted for insisting on some kind of work-life balance.

It sucks.

I disagree that people should just suck it up.
This: I've had to quit all of my hobbies/volunteering as I'm never home and quite often I have to work weekends.
Is one of the reasons our country is in such social trouble and far down the international happiness scales.
People are not working robots. They need interests, connections to family and friends and time to be physically active to be healthy mentally as well as support a healthy society.

I started work in London where 8-7 was normal hours and nobody kept track. Moved to another large city very similar organisation with flexi tinesheets that forced staff to stick to averaging 38hrs a week. Second organisation was no less productive than the first and staff retention far better.

People who are laughing, saying "it's normal" and "welcome to the real world" are missing the point.

No, they're not missing the point. They just know how this will play out in reality.

While there are things the OP can do to manage her hours, fundamentally if she performs less well than others because she's leaving at 5, then she'll be put on the worst projects, sidelined for promotion and eventually managed out.

I agree that it sucks and I wish there was more pressure on businesses to prioritise balance. However this don't seem forthcoming in the current climate.

“Press wouldn’t be interested because it’s an expected and a norm in many firms.

Wrong ”

No beans, it’s not wrong. This isn’t something new, it’s been going on for decades. It’s not news, it’s not been reported in all these years. Just because you haven’t experienced it, doesn’t make your opinion right

There's another way to look at it: in many jobs you could do the bare minimum and work 9 to 6 (I don't know where people find 9 to 5 jobs, I've never seen one!).
You just won't last, because you are surrounded by people keen to progress, keen to show drive and want a promotion, so why should the company keep you?

In others, you might not be able to meet the targets during your core hours. The company won't tell you that there's too much work to do, just that you are not efficient and again, they won't keep you. If you can't meet targets, why should they.

If you work a lot with people overseas, you cannot work 9 to 6 because no-one is available on a different time zone when you need them.

the list goes on, but there are plenty of reasons why many employees are not interested in doing 9 to 5, they have a career in mind and are keen on succeeding.

We aren’t missing the point. I put in the hours in the early years; now I’m a respected expert in my field and have total autonomy; I can pick and choose my hours and earn a decent salary whilst also being their at school pick up every day. In some professions it’s just part of the game you have to play to progress. I can’t tell from Ops post whether that applies to her role, she’ll have to be the judge of that

It being part of life and "acceptable" to some people doesn't make it any less illegal and you can choose whether to tolerate working for a company/in an industry which encourages such huge amounts of overtime for no extra pay or TOIL.

It's threads like this that mean I'm pleased to be an hourly worker, but then I don't have the drive that a lot of other people seem to do. I'd rather earn a bit less and be able to enjoy my evenings and weekends without feeling pressured to work late or take stuff home with me everyday.

There’s no other way to say it other than it’s not my opinion, but you are wrong, petulant. HMRC publish lists of companies who don’t comply with the NMW. It’s not an opinion, it’s fact

And one employee isn't going to do much to change it.

Why not though? If the OP isn’t getting paid the minimum wage, she can report to HMRC anonymously, who will investigate, order back pay to be paid, and fine the company if necessary. The company will end up with their name on a list and possibly reported in the press it’s not the kind of PR many businesses want, is it?

These rights have been hard won for people, if you’re happy to roll over and be treated like shit then don’t complain that employers can seemingly do what they like.

I think if you are doing a “job” then of course it’s not on; but if you are starting a “career” (trainee solicitor or similar) then you take it on the chin because the financial rewards a couple of years down the line will be worth the years of study and low paid on the job training.

It was only when dh’s salary got over
£50k did he earn minimum wage for the
hours he did - (teacher - slt).

That would be an minimum 18 hour day 365 days per year. I know teachers work long hours but I think you got something wrong in your calculations.

I don't want to change things, at all!

Yes, I put up with crappy hours to start with, I built my CV, built my clients. I do not want to become an hourly paid worker. Now that I am more senior, I don't have to justify my time - obviously within reason. I can turn up late, take long lunch breaks, leave very early when I need or feel like it. I don't want someone to calculate how many hours I work in a given month, I am paid in full if I am off sick.

I have to justify my numbers, not my hours, and can't think of anything worst than clock-watching. When it's quiet, we can relax, when it gets busy, people get on with it.

Why not though? If the OP isn’t getting paid the minimum wage, she can report to HMRC anonymously, who will investigate, order back pay to be paid, and fine the company if necessary. The company will end up with their name on a list and possibly reported in the press it’s not the kind of PR many businesses want, is it?

If the OP reports them, the company will point to where the OP has signed out of the working time directive and where their contract says they may have to work over and above hours.

They'll then make the point that it's the OP's responsibility to alert senior staff if they can't do the work in the time available (which might be true, but would be fuck all help to the OP) and quietly manage her out when the fuss has died down.

You have to take a stand.

Do your hours and walk out. Or if you do more on one day if it’s absolutely essential, walk out early the next opportunity you get.

I’ve come to realise people respect this attitude a lot more.

And your self respect goes through the roof. Win win.

Do your hours and walk out. Or if you do more on one day if it’s absolutely essential, walk out early the next opportunity you get.

I’ve come to realise people respect this attitude a lot more.*

I had people in my team with that mentality. First of all, they can't expect the smallest leniency about being late, ever. They only get statutory pay when they are off sick or need dependent days. They are not given 2 or 3 days off on full pay for a funeral, whilst others have.
*
Then you know you can't be rely on because they can't be trusted to do the job and they are just not interested. It's give and take. We even gave a week more paid holiday to someone for their honeymoon. It's give and take!

goodnessidontknow

50k is £35k after tax.
£35k divided by 52 = £673 a week
Divided by 85 = £8.41

He’s been doing 15 hour days during the week and at least 10 hours at weekends. I was actually being conservative with the 85 hours .

Once he got over 50k I reckon he’s on about £14 an hour now.

Have you included pension contributions though laurie ? If his employers making contributions as well then you aren’t painting a fair picture. Plus I think taking tax of is a bit of a distortion too.

Nope, that’s before pension contributions. He’s on about £65 now and takes home £3,200 a month (high pension contributions - think about £450 ish?)

The point is that there is so many hidden hours professionals are doing. I know lots of people in professional, salaried jobs who are earning under £15 an hour. Not just teachers but lawyers, doctors, bankers. My brother is a bank manager - retail branch - is only on about £35k (up north) and works at least 70 hours a week. It’s madness.

• had people in my team with that mentality. First of all, they can't expect the smallest leniency about being late, ever. They only get statutory pay when they are off sick or need dependent days. They are not given 2 or 3 days off on full pay for a funeral, whilst others have.

Then you know you can't be rely on because they can't be trusted to do the job and they are just not interested. It's give and take. We even gave a week more paid holiday to someone for their honeymoon. It's give and take!*

That had nothing to do with the OPs situation. I agree, in a normal working environment give and take is expected. The situation she paints is all take on the employers part.

Salaried or hourly wage, if the job cannot be done in a reasonable time frame because the workload is excessive for the resources, expecting staff to sacrifice their lives to do the impossible whilst being paid an effective pittance for the overall time spent - and I’m guessing absolutely no equity in the business - is not on.

In those circumstances, you take a stand, or you leave the disfunctional workplace because guaranteed there is always somewhere better who understands the concept of balance.

But you can't work it out after tax! Minimum wage last year was £7.50. Even accepting 85 hours a week that works out at £11.36 per hour IF he worked 52 weeks a year with no time off at all.
£11.36 is more than 50% greater than minimum wage.
So yes, your calculations were very wrong.

Of course I can work it out after tax! The whole point is that a MASSIVE salary of £50,000 may only turn into £8.41 take home!!!

The whole point of this thread is that fucking huge salaries are BUTTONS if your fucking job means you don’t see your family for 85 hours a week!

Someone on actual minimum wage is only paying a tiny amount of tax (rightly)

It was only when dh’s salary got over £50k did he earn minimum wage for the hours he did - (teacher - set).

Surprised at that- as a teacher- as the holidays are counted when working out minimum wage. I know we don't get the full 13 weeks but it is unusual for a teacher not to get at least 6.

So say at £34k over 46 working weeks he would have to have been working almost 100 hours a week not to be on the minimum wage.

Sorry- 100 hours a week for 46 weeks a year not to be on a minimum wage. I don't believe that (as someone who works 6 days a week- 12 plus hours a day)

I do understand your point LaurieFairyCake, the numbers just don't quite add up is all!

I've often retorted when people are jealous of my salary that they wouldn't think it was so good if they knew what my hourly rate worked out at.