'You don't like grammar schools because your DC weren't clever enough to get into one'

[Tannertenner]

How would you react if this was said to you in a 'discussion' about the rights and wrongs of grammar schools?

There are always going to be people who justify their own life choices by telling themselves that anyone with genuine moral objections "must be jealous" of them. It's an insecurity thing. Pointless getting into a debate with someone like that. Just ignore.

I hear this a lot. I live in a grammar area and I have one child there, one who is in the local comp (only the top 10% or so get in, so the vast majority go to the local comps instead)
What I have noticed a lot and which entirely backs up what was said to the OP, is that people are all for the grammar, until their kid doesn’t get in. Then suddenly they hate the system, hate the school, hate everything about it. I have seen this so much over the last 3 years - the hyprocracy is almost laughable. If their child had got in, they’d bloody love the system!

If we lived in a non-grammar area I’d have preferred it - having 2 children at different schools is a PITA, but my older one suits the more academic environment and sailed through the 11+, so why wouldn’t I send her there?

I live in a selective area. My DC didn't pass the exam.

I mean, what they said was really shitty, but it was also a bit true if you would have sent them if they'd passed?

The thing is that's never going to happen. We will always have faith schools. If we tried to get rid, we'd need billions to buy the land and buildings required to educate the pillions of children in them. Not ever going to happen. Find a cause to fight that stands a chance of winning.

Nah, I’m carrying on fighting against religious schools for as long as I live. It’s awful that children are discriminated against because of their parents religion. (Or ‘fake’ religion) They are socially divisive and socially selective. I don’t think increasing the number of places that are offered on non-religiously selective admission criteria is unrealistic.

I understand that everyone will do what’s best for their own kids. I would have for my own children - had I not been confident that they would do well at our local comp I would have suggested they go private or to the local grammar. Our family has the choice but many don’t.

BTW I used the term fake religion to refer to all the parents that are only religious when it comes to schooling. Not that the religion itself is fake.

There will always be selective schools, be it religion, ability, geography or parents' income!

What I have noticed a lot and which entirely backs up what was said to the OP, is that people are all for the grammar, until their kid doesn’t get in. Then suddenly they hate the system, hate the school, hate everything about it

This is so true!!

We kept quiet about it as we were getting so much grief.

Our choice was a catholic school (no thanks) or one where he’d be on drugs/stabbed (also, no thanks).

DS chose the grammar. He studied hard (no tutors). He got in. We are ‘poor’.

My god did we feel the hatred from other parents whose kids had been tutored but failed.

My own brother (middle class) wanted his son there. Through money at it. Didn’t pass. Now hates the system. Hates DS.

I hate parent competition.

But if you live in a fully selective area, even if your children don't have to take the test, if they don't take the test or don't pass they'll go to a secondary modern. You have no choice about it if you live in a fully selective area. You can't opt for a comprehensive school because if you opt out of the test you're opting for a secondary modern.

People talk a lot of rubbish about grammar schools and selective schools. Some people don't seem to understand the very basic point that selective schools get amazing results because they have selected academically able children. They won't have selected all the academically able children who took the test as an 11+ test is obviously a snapshot in time. They will have selected some less academically able children who may have been tutored for a very long time. But they won't have selected any children who are not going to get 5 GCSEs.

bumpowder

grammars who function on shoestring budgets yet consistently get the best results.

They get the best results because of their intake though don't they? surely that is inevitable.

In our area the grammars lost a lot of funding in the last formulation round, a lot. They are strapped for cash, cutting back on expensive options and taking a lot more pupils if they can fit then in.

I don't recognize your description of the local comp just stopping children stabbing each other. One of mine goes to the local comp, it's heavily streamed but the quality of teaching is good (turnover of teachers an issue everywhere), extra-curricular good, lots of activities, lots of achievement awards/positive encouragement. There are issues with behaviour, but those children would still be there even if the grammar merged with them.

But they didn’t pass, so maybe it looks like you are bitter? Otherwise why would you let them do the exam? They are not “compulsory”, you could miss them if it’s against your beliefs.

I would prefer to live in a non grammar area. We didn't move here because of the grammar. I wasn't able to move because of issues with my Ex. So we were stuck here.

I couldn't send my DC to a comp school outside our area (in a non grammar area) because we were too far away to get a place.

So what choice did I have? If my DC had passed yes I would have sent them but that wouldn't have changed my view that they are unfair. Several posters upthread have said they or their DC go to grammar and they don't agree with them. I don't view it as mutually exclusive.

I would be offended by the remark the OP refers to, were that the case.

I am all for streaming and sets for children, would be happy to see something akin to O levels and CSEs return, but to make a decision at aged 11 about a person's whole future is wrong. Anyone (a lot older than I) who failed the 11-plus is often affected for life, mentally if not in any other ways.

There will always be selective schools, be it religion, ability, geography or parents' income!

There will indeed.😔. It’s a shame. Unfortunately social mobility is a pipe dream. 🙄.

No namechange they are compulsory in this area. The only way to avoid them is take your child out of school for the day as unauthorised absence and risk sanctions for doing so.

We are a fully selective area.

Well, I wouldn’t talk to that person again. How hurtful. Plenty of children are coached to pass the test - it isn’t a perfect selection process. Plenty of children have other SEN which might mean they are just as ‘clever’ but incapable of passing the test. Plenty of children have other types of intelligence that can’t be measured in the 11+.

I went to a grammar school. I am not a fan of them. They play into the governments plan of increasing social divides and inequality and they favour the middle classes.

I live in a grammar school area and have seen countless parents prepared to do anything to get their kids into the local grammar schools. Then claim the whole system is rubbish and should be abolished when their kids don't pass.

We go through the private system & it's exactly the same: such and such private school is amazing/outstanding/perfect.....until their child doesn't pass the 11+/13+/pre-test then its rubbish/only for snobs...

“I live in a grammar school area and have seen countless parents prepared to do anything to get their kids into the local grammar schools. Then claim the whole system is rubbish and should be abolished when their kids don't pass”

You know something? I don’t think you have.

In many cases the kids going to grammar aren’t the cleverest. If they were then the kids would be ranked by score and only top scorers would be allowed in.

I am always of the view that if someone resorts to insults it’s because they can’t think of anything else to add to the argument and by that thinking have therefore lost the arguement

In many cases the kids going to grammar aren’t the cleverest. If they were then the kids would be ranked by score and only top scorers would be allowed in.

They are in a super selective area. Ranked in order of their standardised score and only the highest scoring children get a place. Much better than a percentage based selective system as it means the schools are only used for the purpose they're created and for the students who need them the most

In many cases the kids going to grammar aren’t the cleverest. If they were then the kids would be ranked by score and only top scorers would be allowed in.

? That's exactly how it works where we live. I still don't think that it means you end up with only the 'cleverest' (whatever that means) kids passing, but that's exactly what they do.

I really don't think some of the people opposed to grammar schools really understand how they work these days and that there is more than one system of entry round the country

Every child I know who is currently at GS has been rigorously tutored for at least a year. Their parents made no secret of it.

Many struggle when they get to GS as they're just not as bright as they've been lead to believe. Many of the clever ones are in top set at the local comp.