To think there's nothing stopping disadvantaged parents putting their dc in for the 11+ now

[twoorangesandabanana]

Both my DC are at grammar school. Neither had a private tutor we just did a few papers to get used to the questions. So why do disadvantaged dc extra help/lower pass marks to get into grammar school? And why do I keep hearing that grammar schools are full of posh kids? This is simply not true and if that is the case are comprehensive schools full of common kids? People should really get their facts straight before making ridiculous statements.

not sure I can be bothered to even try to explain it to you, as you obviously feel you are right.

Fuck’s sake. Seriously?

All that's true, but the fact is that a lot of disadvantaged kids are from families where the parents hated school and teachers. The idea of their children going to a different type of school (which is more posh, despite everything) which might be in a different area (might be additional expenses involved) can be terrifying for some parents. And it means their children might not be like them - that would be a concern, too.

I taught A levels and most of my pupils said their parents never went to parents' evenings. They felt sick when they went into a school. They associated it with boredom and fear - like a prison, really.

Would a parent who feels like that really find it easy to even think about the 11+ exam?

And I agree with you about tuition - the whole point should be that children don't get tuition - if they can cope with the exam, they get in. My friends' children went to a private primary school and spent 3 hours every Saturday morning for two years preparing for that test!

Haha, wishtheground I opened this and just thought, ffs, I can’t even be arsed responding to this...

People move into catchment areas, pushing up house prices

Parental aspirations

Tutoring

Lack of support in primary school

because the disadvantaged northern town I live in hasent had Grammar schools since about 1982?

“People should really get their facts straight before making ridiculous statements“

Yep. That’s true.

🤦‍♀️

Apart from:

• being organised enough to know the deadlines and apply in time
• being academically up to helping with even 'a few papers to get used to the questions'
• having had the time and skills to ensure the child is fully up to their innate ability in English and Maths over the last number of years
• being able to afford the travel to the further away grammar
• being able to afford the often more expensive uniform
• overcoming the feel that 'grammars are not for the likes of us'

Nope. Nothing stopping them at all.

There are things that understandably stop disadvantaged people putting their children in for the 11+, but I don't think they are a good reason not to have grammar schools.

You are right that grammar schools aren't full of posh children, and there are plenty of children in between posh and disadvantaged that deserve to be catered for. I don't understand the mentality that just because some people won't do something, then no one should do it.

We just did practice papers at home too, and it was enough. It takes motivation, not money, and the only way to open up the opportunity for more people is to create more spaces. That way competition wouldn't be so fierce and people wouldn't feel their already top of the class children need tutoring.

the only way to open up the opportunity for more people is to create more spaces

Or, have decent comps (see e.g. Hants) so grammars aren't needed.

Ok - this will be long but I am going to try and explain from our experience.

We are very working class ( I grew up in the system, husband working class family )
I went did well at school in maths and music with overall good grades.
Went to university but settled in a job I love which is youth work.
My husband is in the fire service.
We have 2 children one of which is about to start secondary school and got in to the local faith school ( original post was about grammar and faith schools )
He is very talented at sport and is also very academic which meant his choices due to the sport they offered was between the local faith school or the grammar school.
Neither of which we were happy with but I could understand why he wanted to.
Now I am carer for youngest DD and we live of a firemans income !

So he got in to the faith school he so desperately wants to go to which isn't free to go until your get the welcoming packs of all these additional fees, blazers 95-115 pound as an example !
Costs of all the sports uniforms and fees to join.
We have very quickly learned that we will struggle to keep him in the school.
He will probably not get the lost out of school as he could either sue to the hidden fees needed.
I think he will defiantly end up at the local comp which is where I would of originally suggested.

Plenty of children at GS are struggling because they don’t have the ability, but we’re tutored through the exam.

If it was primary school led and parents were take out of the equation it would be a fairer system, as it was back in the day. At least then everyone would get a fair crack.

Sorry *is free to go to !

But if you open up more places and not have such high entry requirements you are basically just turning a grammar school into comprehensive school. And if parents are uncomfortable sending their dc to grammar school how will that work. You can't force them to send their dc to a school they disagree with.

Actually @tworangesandabanana there is much evidence that shows if children from disadvantaged backgrounds are given lower entry requirements they often do very well, becauae their achievement in the face of adversity ‘buys’ a premium as they progress to more senior levels of education.

You obviously have bright kids. I expect they get that from their other parent.

Our GS requires that you apply directly to them by mid-July, and open evenings started in April. Most high school open days locally are in September. Unless you've had the GS on your radar for a long time you will have missed the deadline before you even knew it existed.

My son will get some bonus marks for being a summer baby. He doesn't seem to be behind his autumn counterparts, but I understand that statistically across a population summer born children still need an uplift at 11+, so I understand why that adjustment is applied.

My dd goes to GS, her bus fare is £725 per academic year, we are out of catchment, paid in one hit.
Had she gone to the local comprehensive, the bus fare would have been £380, £10 paid weekly.

Both amounts of money are not insignificant but £725 is a lot of money to find in one go, especially for the disadvantaged.

statistically across a population summer born children still need an uplift at 11+, so I understand why that adjustment is applied.

What happens here is that the marks for each month's cohort (all sept born, Oct born and so on up to August) are plotted together and if one month's data on average look statistically different to another then all the children in that month get a slight uplift.

Theoretically if all the September born children together achieved a much lower average mark than all the other months, they'd get the uplift, but it usually happens the other way - August average score will probably be lower so those grades are the ones adjusted - so it's not as simple as automatically adding marks to later borns.

There are different types of disadvantage. I grew up with financial disadvantage among other issues but my parents were bright & well educated. Books were normal. A love of learning was encouraged. Perhaps equally important, they present well - and knew how to engage teachers.

My husband grew up in similar poverty but with parents who were very different. No books, no love of learning themselves and no one in their lives who did a job requiring an education.

So my DH was considered developmentally delayed at school & left with no GCSEs. Hes lucky he found a vocation he loved and independently discovered his interest in learning. He has a masters degree now & a good career. He is absolutely brighter than many of the people I went to grammar school with but at 10 yoh would never have known that.

Great idea in theory but how would you actually get these deprived dc to actually sit the 11+. Would all dc be made to do it in year 6 then the highest scorers get a place?

People should really get their facts straight before making ridiculous statements.
Good advice, why don't you take it?

Im 61 and when i hit the last year of junior school every child in each of the junior schools in our town took the 11 plus exam without extra tuition only what the teachers had taught us, (bog standard CofE school) and out of our school five of us went to grammar school, and when we got there was a mix of ordinary background children with a smattering of children from the local private prep school, i could have gone to the all girls grammar in another town but my mom being a widow couldnt afford the bus fares so local i went, my how things have changed now,

then the top 5-10% of children went to grammar school because they were bright enough to pass the exam not because their parents could afford extra tuition and for the record i hated the whole time i was there due to one rich boy who bullied me

Gr8 b8 m8 👌