To think cosmetic surgery and enhancements are anti feminist?

[BrightonCalling]

I'm reading the beauty myth. So far, as I understand it Naomi Wolf is saying that plastic surgery, botox, "tweaks" are carried out by women in a bid to hold on to their power, which sadly in our culture, is synonymous with beauty and youth.

Until now I actuallu thought the above were about freedom of choice ajd I took a live and let live approach to the issue. But reading this book (Im only on the first chapter), I find myself agreeing with her.

It cant be about just wanting to look your best when so few men do it. So is cosmetic enhancement a negative thing, and if you think so, where do we draw the line - how is cosmetic enhancement different from say makeup?

Does anyone, honestly, really, want things to get to the point where those who haven’t enhanced themselves surgically are the ones that stand out?

This is my concern with cosmetic surgery^
It's already getting to be that way. Cosmetic surgery has become so normal now that we're beginning to lose sight of what a natural female body and face looks like.

Young girls are growing up seeing these surgically enhanced 'perfect' women, and wondering why they don't look the same. (Enter low-self esteem.) Then these girls seek to rectify the 'problem' as soon as they can - and lo, we end up with women in their 20s stuffing their face with fillers, going through breast enlargement surgery, tummy tucks, bum implants, and whatever else about the natural female shape requires 'fixing' these days.

It's warped and doing a hell of a lot of damage. Invasive surgery should never have been given the green light for cosmetic reasons (except in extreme circumstances; burn victims etc.) It's not in any way comparable to using makeup and a bit of hair dye

I always get stuck on this one.

One part of me thinks that women should feel (rather than just have) the freedom to do whatever to their bodies, etc.
The other part feels that the desire to undertake cosmetic procedures comes is manufactured by the industry, and not an intrinsic issue (for the most part, and excluding reconstructive).

I am left utterly cold by the current 'standard' for attractiveness. As a result, I have no investment in more women looking this way. Many men would say different, but I wonder about the extent to which those viewpoints are similarly products of an industry that promotes one image as 'correct' to the detriment of others. From my teens, male media moved towards a homogenous view of attractive. Luckily for me, I simply fell off the wagon and remain disconnected to this. I wonder how many simply conformed to what they saw as the societal norm; and fell into the self-perpetuation.

Ah. This is an old thread.

Can we have zombie warnings on threads older than 6 months please?

As for the flip side, male cosmetics may have good %increase claims, but that's coz the market is still small.
I use a bit of hair product, and after shave balm to reduce the itchy red of shave rash. Beyond that, couldn't give a shit if hair goes grey, falls out, get face wrinkles, etc.
Other males I know may use moisturiser, but that's about the limit; and there's a fair bit of sniggering about men who have facelifts, etc.
Part of this I see as a tendency towards a self-achieved bias amongst men - getting a bit flabby? Hit the gym and do it like a man

Yes I use moisturizer on a daily basis otherwise my skin goes dry and flakes, I don't use it to make myself look more attractive or to feel confident enough to post a selfie, something is seriously wrong with the world if young girls feel like they don't fit in if they don't get chemicals pumped into their bodies.

Of course it's anti-feminist and the acrobatics people (including those on this thread) go through to justify it is hilarious.

However, you can do anti-feminist things and still be a feminist. No one is perfect. If the size of your tits or the number of your wrinkles make life difficult for you, you are within your rights to do something to change it.

I know that my thrice-weekly super hot baths (with plenty of top-ups) are selfish and wasteful, but the relief and relaxation I get from them is worth it to me. I'll fight for the environment in other areas of my life, but to pretend that my baths are not ACTUALLY bad for the planet (when I have a perfectly nice shower three feet away from the bath) just because I LIKE them and I WANT them is idiotic. Just like pretending fake tits are feminist just because you WANT them is idiotic. You want them because you've been conditioned by a sexist society to think they're important. Get them if you want, but try to at least not delude yourself (and think very carefully about the message you're giving to your children and the other young people in your life).

Mallorie. Well said.

I've had plastic surgery. I did it for me. No one else. It made me feel better and more confident in myself.

I couldn't have cared less what my OH at the time thought. He supported me but didn't feel I needed it.

I just hate the whole its my body and if it makes me happy attitude, when in reality there has been an explosion of cosmetic procedures done within the last decade and yet mental illness particularly in young girls and women is increasing massively year on year because they are trying to keep up with each other...there is nothing feminist about women mentally destroying each other. It seriously makes me stressed when I see the young girls in my own family when at 18 they are coming home with pumped up lips, Botox foreheads all so that they can post a selfie and tag the clinic and therefore they have ticked the social media box for the day, i find it bizarre that anyone can claim there is anything feminist about this behavior when this is exactly the sort of thing that real feminists fought and died to get rid of, women judging themselves or being judged, or judging other women on their looks.

I'm generally one for aiming my feminism at the institutions and the cultural norms than the women who might be "victims" of them. I know that's easier to say than to tangibly express what it means, but to me it's about targeting the money and the politics to enact a voluntary change in people. Not targeting the people to drive a change in the money and the politics.

It is a choice though.

I choose to not have it because if rather be who I am than have surgery to change it. No one is making me have surgery. Its not anti feminist. That's crap!

I’ve had plastic surgery. Rhinoplasty, years ago now. I don’t think of it as being anti-feminist- why shouldn’t I be able to alter my appearance if it makes me happier? Not very good at expressing myself, but I though feminism was about women having the free choice to do these things.

MY rule of thumb is to be very thoughtful of anythingwhere there is a big male female divide. SO make up as well as surgery. To me it stressses the disproportionate importance placed on female youth and beauty , so it indicates a society where males and females are unequal. SO it’s a feminist issue.

But we only live once and we only live in the society we are in, so do it If it makes you happy. In another time and space you might have done differently, but you are here and now

But try not to judge women who don’t wear make up and don’t “make an effort” to look good

I though feminism was about women having the free choice to do these things.

That's where you're wrong, then. Feminism is about dismantling the institutionalised oppression of women. The idea that it actually means 'I, as a woman, can do whatever I want and call it feminist, up to and including dangerous, unnecessary body modification and degrading pornography in which I am physically and verbally abused and humiliated' seems to have replaced the real definition of feminism somewhere between Madonna and The Spice Girls.

I am genuinely glad your rhinoplasty makes you feel better - it's something I've considered before, as well. I'm a massive strident radical feminist, and I wear makeup most days, and spend money on skin care, and wear heels. I genuinely prefer the way I look in makeup and heels but I also know that if I lived on a deserted feminist island with no men around I wouldn't bother. I feel like women who insist otherwise are deluding themselves. My makeup and heels are my choice, but they are not feminist, and it did me good to come to terms with that.

That's where you're wrong, then. Feminism is about dismantling the institutionalised oppression of women. The idea that it actually means 'I, as a woman, can do whatever I want and call it feminist, up to and including dangerous, unnecessary body modification and degrading pornography in which I am physically and verbally abused and humiliated' seems to have replaced the real definition of feminism somewhere between Madonna and The Spice Girls.

This.

It cant be about just wanting to look your best when so few men do it. So is cosmetic enhancement a negative thing, and if you think so, where do we draw the line - how is cosmetic enhancement different from say makeup?

It is all part of it. Though pressure to get surgery would (I assume it is not quite happening yet, correct me if I'm wrong) be much worse than the everyday pressure to do makeup, wear bras, wear heels, it all is on the same continuum.

While there are things one can do that are much more antifeminist - such as actively opposing feminist politics, or participating in the erosion of women's rights - using make up is not feminist, nor is it neutral to feminism, and the same applies to surgery.

I myself never learnt how to apply makeup and would look shit if I tried, so it is not an option, but perhaps I would use it if I could - women are so strongly incentiviced to.
(However, I would try to do the maths - increase in income versus cost of makeup and time. Not gonna do it if I don't profit. It seems that most women do it and perhaps there is a net financial gain, but it would be interesting to know for sure.)

Men tend to make the time to continue to play sport and go to the gym, and they don't age in the same way women do because they don't have child bearing to contend with.

Or they're the way they are round here. Fat, balding and looking every day of their age.

The idea that it actually means 'I, as a woman, can do whatever I want and call it feminist

That’s not what I said. Obviously I know that’s not what feminism is.

But women are free to make those choices if they want to, and shouldn’t be judged - or judge other women. Cosmetic surgery isn’t always something done to please others or to fit a stereotype. I was just a person with a very bulbous nose

Damn, didn't know bras were anti-feminist.

Oh dear. It looks like I should sacrifice my comfort and suffer back pain in order to become the Perfect Feminist Warrior.

... Hm. Nope. Actually, this can fuck right off.