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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think accusations of bullying are sometimes used to shutdown free speech on MN?

25 replies

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 05:27

So on Instagram there is a picture being reposted by some of the instamums saying how Mumsnet is essentially facilitating bullying through not moderating posts strongly enough. Obviously a lot of the sentiment has been fuelled by the instamum's threads which did get a bit nasty and personal, but in my view that were a tiny minority of posts that crossed that line and the vast majority were raising valid concerns about child exploitation and undisclosed advertising. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I think a lot of the people sharing this new 'Mumsnet encourages bullying' message are hoping that Mumsnet will take fright and shutdown all critical discussion on these Instagrammers.

Also saw similar accusations of bullying and racism when people dared to question the authenticity of Meghan Markle. Whilst I would say there were some strong opinions expressed in the thread, I really dislike the fact that a random poster stating their opinion of someone that has chosen to be a public figure and will ultimately receive a reasonable amount of taxpayers' money is deemed to be bullying. I think a key element of bullying is the power dynamic that exists between the bully and the victim For this reason alone I would suggest that these posts were not a case of bullying. She may well be a bit offended if she was by some miracle to uncover these posts and opinions, but that would not make her a victim of bullying.

The trans threads are a whole other ballgame. Stating concerns about men going into female spaces etc also isn't bullying in itself.

Basically where does this all end? Is Theresa May being 'bullied' by MN? How about President Trump?

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BlueBug45 · 05/05/2018 06:19

Any forum on the internet hosted by an organisation, company or individual doesn't allow you free speech.

They cannot as they are publishers who can get sued if posts overstep the deflamation laws.

So if posts about Ms Markle are considered racist or posts about transgendered individuals are considered to break equality legislation by enough posters, then they can get removed and posters can be banned.

I was on another forum once hosted in the US where the forum owner was taken to court because they didn't moderate posts that an individual complained about that she felt that was targeting her. As a result the forum was first locked down - you had to use a password and then pay to post - then taken down completely even though the individual reached an out of court agreement with the forum owner.

TireSwing · 05/05/2018 06:25

As someone who followed all the "instamum" threads and dramatically changed the way I used Instagram as a result (unfollowed everyone I don't know, set profile to private, removed hundreds of my "followers") I actually think we can leave them to it on this one.

We all know Instagram is a saccharine echo chamber with anything remotely critical or questioning deleted or shouted down as "trolling" or now "bullying". We (as people who use mumsnet and also use Instagram) might be able to get them to use #ad, etc. but we're not going to change the minds of the many fawning followers who admit they have never having actually used mumsnet but hate it anyway.

Leave them to it, I say. I for one am fucking thrilled mumsnet is NOT Instagram. Thank Christ

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 06:27

But surely criticism in itself isn't deflamation or bullying? How are we ever going to get any form of accountable from public figures without sharing information which may paint them in s negative light?

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BlueBug45 · 05/05/2018 06:31

It's how that criticism is worded.

ReliefOfChaos · 05/05/2018 06:45

Mumsnet can be pretty damn toxic. I don't think attempts to deal with that are a conspiracy to shut down free speech. This forum has a very bad reputation in the real world, or certainly in my circles.

Mumsnet HQ are a business, and if they're driving more people away than are happy about the 'robust' debate and atmosphere they're going to start punting the people who are 'stating concerns'.

MadameGrizzly · 05/05/2018 06:46

Loudly complaining of bullying and trolling is an excellent silencer of any valid criticism.

"I think a key element of bullying is the power dynamic that exists between the bully and the victim"

I think this is key. I really like the following definitions which I've used to clearly explain bullying to children:

Rude = Inadvertently saying or doing something that hurts someone else.

Mean = Purposefully saying or doing something to hurt someone once (or maybe twice).

Bullying = Intentionally aggressive behavior, repeated over time, that involves an imbalance of power.

I agree posts on MN can be rude. Occasionally posts can be mean. If posts are repeatedly being made over a period of time AND their intention is to wilfully hurt AND the poster is in a position of power, then yes, it is bullying. But I'm not sure how a power imbalance can occur between a MN poster and an Instagrammer?

I mean, Instagrammers delete negative comments and block the poster so the Instagrammer holds the position of power, at least on Instagram.

On MN there is an easy remedy to stop posts that are intentionally hurtful over a sustained period with a genuine imbalance of power: report them.

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 06:56

Madame yes! I like your criteria around what constitutes bullying. Stops the term from being diluted to a point where it means someone saying something you don't like .

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MadameGrizzly · 05/05/2018 07:00

Yep, it particularly stops children wailing about bullying because they have to stop and think whether the other person was a bit thoughtless, intentionally unkind as a one off, or a true bully.

But having said that, they appear to be spoiling for a fight on IG so I agree with TireSwing. Leave them to it!

Sparklingbrook · 05/05/2018 07:02

Mumsnet is essentially facilitating bullying through not moderating posts strongly enough

Those posts would have to be reported. There is no moderation as such.

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 07:06

Sparkling I think that there are occasions where posts have been reported, but MNHQ have made a decision to let them stand to facilitate the debate. Good examples would be the trans threads. I think that's where the moderation criticism stems from.

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Sparklingbrook · 05/05/2018 07:09

Only the person reporting would know what the reply was. MNHQ gave to make a call.

Wisdens · 05/05/2018 07:10

We all know Instagram is a saccharine echo chamber with anything remotely critical or questioning deleted or shouted down as "trolling" or now "bullying"

Replace Instagram with Mumsnet and delete saccharine.......

AuntieStella · 05/05/2018 07:11

The only bullying I see is the claim that if you disagree on certain subjects you're a brainwashed handmaiden who is colluding to silence women.

No, I'm not. I'm a woman who doesn't agree with you.

(And BTW, I'm paraphrasing, just to preempt the line which comes next, which is 'but we never said those words')

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 07:13

Wisdens if you were right, I would expect your post to be deleted...

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Inolvidable · 05/05/2018 07:20

MN is not really any different to many other hard left, feminist echo chambers on the internet. It's not a place where intelligent debate is to be had, not toeing the line whips up a frenzy amongst some of the more extreme posters and has you branded a troll.

DazzlingMilton · 05/05/2018 07:23

This is really interesting. I feel that the whole world seems to be moving towards an echo chamber and pack mentality whereby offence is immediately taken to anything that is not fawning praise.

It results in a population of people who are less able to evaluate and improve their choices with constructive criticism, and crucially unable to defend or argue their case when required to do so.

That said, bullying and mean behaviour (I like the definitions above) have become massively more prevalent and problematic with the immersion of social media in our lives, so I can understand why some people, particularly younger (I’m in my 30s) are reluctant or scared to tolerate any kind of critical response for fear of engaging with hyper negativity. I say critical, because critical is not always the same as criticism in the sense that you are being asked to argue or defend a point in question.

The only way to shut down a bully online is to call out bullying. Unfortunately this is being too liberally applied to people who simply disagree with you or god forbid, don’t like something.

My brother is the prime example of living in his own echo chamber, he will scream at me until he’s blue in the face “you never listen to me” , whereas I’m listening to every word he says. I just don’t agree with him. In his world, if you don’t agree with him you’re not listening as it’s absolutely impossible for him to be wrong.

Likewise you see this all the time on AIBU at the moment. People coming on asking a question and then aggressively attacking people who challenge them on their position (which is what I like about AIBU, the fact you can sense check yourself in an anonymous forum). I was reported recently simply for disagreeing with the position of a poster who then clearly said all she had wanted was for people to agree with her. Needless to say nothing came of the report whatsoever, I’d done nothing wrong other than have a different point of view (with frankly more experience) to the OP.

The good thing about this situation is that it makes clear that bullying and hyper negativity, and meanness as above, has no place in any society. I think this is very important.

The bad thing is that these lower levels of resilience are leading people to call bullying too quickly simply because they feel offended or can’t effectively argue their case, which in turn minimises the seriousness of actual bullying.

So yes OP, I completely agree. But I don’t think it’s limited to MN and I don’t think it’s limited to “free speech”. Accusations of bullying are used to shut down anyone that has a difference of opinion to you or god forbid, doesn’t like the same thing.

VikingVolva · 05/05/2018 07:34

I think you've nailed it Inolvidable

Or as I saw it on another thread 'They're confusing Starbucks with party hall'

(And before I'm nitpicked for repeating that, can I point out that yes I do know MN is publication not chat, I'm using metaphor)

Shampooeeee · 05/05/2018 07:50

I partly agree.

Some of the stuff posted about Meghan Markle makes me uncomfortable and just seems so unnecessary.
On the other hand, I think bloggers and instamums/ dads put themselves out there for profit and should be able to handle criticism. Behaving unethically regarding sponsorship then crying bullying when anyone discusses this just reveals what a ridiculous industry it is. I didn’t follow the insta threads because I find general parenting instas really boring. Thanks to this thread, I just searched for the anti- mumsnet stuff and found that a couple of children’s clothes brands I follow have liked it. I will no longer buy from them. I love mumsnet and really appreciate the sometimes brutal honesty of this place. I won’t support anyone who tries to shut it down or fundamentally change it.

I agree that the word bullying is used far too frequently and only serves to dilute the severity of actual bullying.

CookieAngelPants · 05/05/2018 07:52

I think certain comments were quite personal which isn't very nice. However this is the internet - everyone in the public eye will get the same treatment. Be it on Twitter, the comments on the Daily Mail or on Mumsnet.

It's impossible to moderate everything so I'm inclined to say if you can't stand the heat...

PoorYorick · 05/05/2018 07:56

If you haven't been arrested, your right to free speech has not been impinged upon.

Bumpitybumper · 05/05/2018 07:58

PoorYorick No, but if MN starts to crack down on controversial opinions on the back of these bullying accusations then I personally think we have lost an important platform for free(ish) speech. Being able to speak freely is only useful if you have a way of being heard.

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Whatalovelymug · 05/05/2018 08:02

Just posted about this on the #ad thread. I agree with Tire.

Shampooeeee · 05/05/2018 11:39

I just saw that a woman I knew many years ago has commented on insta thanking them for this post. She is trying to set herself up as an Instamum at the moment.
Ironically, she was well known for actually bullying others in the field I knew her in.
being deliberately vague as I don’t have any evidence, but I do have a long memory

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 05/05/2018 12:00

Why is it only MN that always comes in for so much criticism. Men are never held to this standard. Male dominated forums and sites roast everyone and everything, often in the harshest way. No one ever says anything about it, it's just accepted that 'boys will be boys' when it comes to that sort of thing.

Women get no such leeway. Any sort of criticism or anything that isn't a glowing review of how wonderful these people are and it's 'trolls and bullies'. Somehow because we are women we are never supposed to say a bad word about any fellow woman ever, because we are supposed to be 'sticking together' or some such bollocks. No one ever says that about men.

I have noticed that Instagram is just like a school clique on a massive scale anyway, with the cool girls at the top and then the sycophants on the periphery begging to be noticed by sucking up to them.

Im so saying we all purposely have to be really mean, but a lot of the 'trolling' you hear about on here really is just someone who disagrees with someone else. I agree with others that this whole 'you said something I don't agree with so I'm going to shut you down completely' that we are seeing in all walks at the moment, is really damaging actually.

Mumofkids · 05/05/2018 20:54

@ellenripleysalienbaby agree. Trolling is now disagreeing and bullying is questioning someone's choices/motives/use of children. It's ridiculous.

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