AIBU to want to talk about race? RE Kayne West

[FlyTipper]

This is an opinion piece about Kanyne West and who gets to talk about the fallout from his slavery comments.

www.theguardian.com/music/commentisfree/2018/may/03/selects-how-should-white-people-talk-about-kanye-west

I agree with much written here, but nonetheless I have some questions.

I agree that non-blacks really should avoid black spaces to discuss slavery. There's nothing new you can add to the conversation - yes, indeed.

But: If I want to criticise West by saying he sold out his own people, then the author instructs: NOBODY ASKED YOU....you need to check your privilege and be quiet for a while. Of course, nobody asked me. Nobody asks me what my opinion on brexit is, but I don't shut up about it IRL . On social media, nobody is explicitly invited to proffer their opinion, but everyone does. I can't help getting riled at the instruction to be quiet - even as I can see that white voices have been drowning out blacks since forever (and yes, I have looked inwardly to see if I have this reaction because a black person is asking me - I don't think it is, I feel the same x100 about #nodebate). I don't see how self-censorship helps anyone. What if it leads to a couldn't-care-less attitude, as people disengage from fighting racism?

She also advises to avoid talking about West's alleged MH problems because this is a distraction from the harm done by West's comments. Okay - I partly agree with this. However, it is still relevant to West's motives driving his outburst. To avoid MH completely - and avoid offending people with neurodiversities in our ableist society - amounts to restricting free speech.

I am saddened to think that the conversation about race should be going on in closed rooms. Where blacks discuss West in one place, non-blacks in another, and never the twain shall meet. Isn't this preserving divisions already in place? And yes, I understand intellectually (I have no direct experience being non-black myself) that the debates on race have been dominated by white voices. I agree wholeheartedly with having non-black spaces to discuss these issues, I just also think there should be an open forum where everyone can pitch in. AIBU?

I can see what the author is saying. A lot of white people have been very quick to jump on Kanye for “selling out” whilst ignoring the numerous non-black, anti-Black statements being made day in day out, by celebrities and average people alike.

I think it's fine for you to engage in the debate and have an opinion, as long as you aren't drowning out or talking over black people. This is a time for white people to listen, not lead.

"Signal boosting" is probably a reasonable approach. Look around for a point of view that speaks to you from someone black/ female (relevant to this conversation, such as modern day slaves) and share it, there is a spectrum of opinion out there.
An open approach to the boundaries of what is attributable to MH and what is a damaging opinion is long overdue. There is so much fear an inverse bias almost.

It's like saying we shouldn't discuss Holocaust-deniers because we are not Jewish.

I do think white people should talk about racism. After all, isn't racism in the UK basically a problem with how white behave? In the same way that sexism is a problem that women can't solve on their own because it is usually a problem with men's behaviour.

But I don't think jumping on Kanye is particularly helpful. I can see why people are annoyed by his comments, but I don't think he's actually contributing to the racism that people face. He's made some apparently silly comments (as he often does on many topics), but there's other more important things we should be discussing including both overt racist behaviour and unconscious bias in eg employment that could actually make a difference to people's lives.

It's kind of like men criticising a woman who has made some kind of statement that could be seen as blaming victims of sexual assault. It's not that what this hypothetical woman said is right but let's focus on the issue at hand and how we can stop men committing sexual assault you know? It also has an air of 'White people's behaviour isn't that bad because black people (ie Kanye) sometimes say insulting things about black people too'.

If a high profile woman came out with radically sexist remarks, women and men would rightly criticise her. I don't think feminists would say, don't worry guys, we got this, go and talk in your own blokey circles. On the other hand, if some guy then tried to mansplain the sexism (I have a flashback to Owen Jones in an interview), it would make me cringe. There would be better informed women who could do the job better. So yes, I do understand the global point of the article and agree with it - I simply don't like the closing down of certain voices, even in the interests of equality. Let's face it, Owen Jones defending women might make me cringe, but when his speaks to an audience, he isn't just speaking to women, he's speaking to other men.

I don't think feminists would say, don't worry guys, we got this, go and talk in your own blokey circles.

I probably wouldn't explicitly say that to men, but if for example my Facebook feed was full of guys who never normally talk about sexism all piling in on this hypothetical woman, I would be thinking 'Great. How about you actually confront men who say/do sexist things? You could actually do some good and everyone already clearly agrees that what this woman said was stupid'.

I think I also inherently I feel a bit uncomfortable when people from the oppressor class (even if they are not oppressors themselves) judge how people from the oppressed class respond to the oppression if you know what I mean?

But I see where you're coming from and I'm very conscious of the fact that it's hard to talk about racism at all without unintentionally saying something that comes off the wrong way.

But: If I want to criticise West by saying he sold out his own people, then the author instructs: NOBODY ASKED YOU....you need to check your privilege and be quiet for a while.

YANBU
Apart from being rude and bossy ('be quiet'), the above is an example of censoring opinion about current affairs topics based on supposed 'privilege' and on race.

I think it's fine for you to engage in the debate and have an opinion, as long as you aren't drowning out or talking over black people. This is a time for white people to listen, not lead.

But it isn't just 'white people' who get shouted down for having an opinion. Conservative vlogger Candace Owens (who KW supported) has had some vile racist and sexist abuse hurled at her, by the left, in the last few weeks.

To use two hackneyed phrases; 'signal boost' and 'stay in your lane'.

While obviously it would be ridiculous for non-AA people to say that somehow they know better than AA people about AA issues or problems that doesn't mean that non - AA people don't have something useful to contribute to the discussion so long as they are mindful of their lack of first hand experience and the effect that this may have on their understanding of the issues.

Ally, I'm uneasy for the same reasons. This article is clearly written for people like me. I'm also uneasy with how fractured the debate becomes, white talking to whites, black to blacks. It somehow seems so damaging when a highly public figure goes against his/her group. Hearing those words from Kayne, I can visualise how the white racists are hopping around in glee. It means so much more if it comes from the oppressed group. So yes, whites should be calling out their own, but this week, the news is all about Kayne. By delimiting any/all criticism as black persons work, it somehow feels 'specialist interest'. I bloody well want to hear Piers Morgan or others talking about this on TV. I want the subject to cross 'lanes' as the author puts it. It's a great opportunity to a/ explain some history of slavery to those ignorant of it, and b/ bring the tropes linked to 'lazy blacks' to public attention, dissect it, explain why it is so dangerous. I want everyone to talk about it.

Came across this video on my Facebook where the guy in the middle tries to "debunk" white privilege as an overly simplistic viewpoint and argues that privilege is much more about class. I am not sure what to make of it...

There's a theory that Kanye West is currently in the middle of a HUGE performance art piece whereby he is turning racist cliches on their own head.

Link to full explanation here....

non dodgy- non daily fail link

If this is the case then I think he's massively overestimated the general intelligence of the general public.

Kanye West has 2 albums coming out next month, personally I think he’ll say anything to make them sell. Recently he’s become Kim Kardashian’s mad husband,

• not a good look. Its no surprise he’s suddenly a talking point again right before his record release.

I half suspected what you say Troll, and agree with you about the overestimating the audience. Reminds me of a Portlandia sketch - it's just an art project! but a whole lot less funny :(

i think it depends on where your from , whilst race is a massive issue in the US , here in the UK race and class are more interlinked, im from an area of high social deprivation and one would have to wonder what white privilige has done for them, and it can be no accident that a lot if far right groups thrive in densley white areas with high levels of poverty. So by saying 'shut up white people' it almost adds fuel to far right mentalities. Regarding Kanye West, I errr words fail me, Will i am had a scathing interview about hus slavery comments, and it is rumoured that rihanna and other black celebrities have unfollowed him its sad to see him self destruct so much, and yes, I feel sorry for Kim K and the kids, i detest all she stands for but if he behaves this way infront of tv cameras and millions of people he must be unbearable at home

I see were back at the only people of color can be victims of racism. I understand what Kanye says is about black people, but lots of different races have been slaves before.

Even white people have captured and enslaved from Europe and sold as slaves to North Africa and the Ottoman Empire this happened for around 250 years.

"On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680. By extension, for the 250 years between 1530 and 1780, the figure could easily have been as high as 1,250,000"

I think shutting the door for communication is stupid. Most people black, white or purple believe that slavery is wrong. Most I white people alive today never owned a slave, most black people alive have never been a slave. I think this them v us rhetoric is stupid, and does more harm than good.

If I read something like that it would instantly turn meld the topic.

Flytipper it's kind of sad because when you consider the imagery it is pretty blatant that this is the narrative that he's headed for.

I think the problem is that nobody likes to listen these days nor bothers their arse with reading.

They want a simple explanation handed to them. Even better if it's just a headline. Unfortunately it's far more complex than that and if any of the people on this thread just googled and paid attention then they might grasp something other than basic outrage.

It is wrong for anyone to claim that slavery was a choice. I can disagree with Kanye's words without bringing the colour of his skin into my opinion. His opinion is wrong. Not because he is black, but because his opinion is wrong. I hate Trump and all he stands for. I don't understand how anyone could have voted for him. I regularly voice this too. I find the article really aggressive. It's not my place to tell a person of colour how to feel about KW or Trump, but I will defend their right to be outraged and upset and do everything I can to set myself apart from anyone who utters such insensitive and racist opinion.

Came across this video on my Facebook where the guy in the middle tries to "debunk" white privilege as an overly simplistic viewpoint and argues that privilege is much more about class. I am not sure what to make of it...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPUHSPrVWeU

I agree with him, the concept of 'white privilege' is deeply floored.
Also, his point at the end, about people not knowing how to debate/put across their argument anymore. That they attack the person and not the point being made.
This is what has happened to KW. He is saying some interesting things but they only pick up on his minor inarticulate gaffs

*flawed

Yeah, I know what you mean @alpineflowers - I thought he made a very good argument. But it still irks me to hear it from a white guy... I guess that the price we pay for living in the current world where we actually DO judge everyone by race, gender, sexuality etc.

But it still irks me to hear it from a white guy.

Why?

“I don't think feminists would say, don't worry guys, we got this, go and talk in your own blokey circles.”

I’d say it’s very likely they would.
I’ve often heard variants of men’s role in this debate is to shut up and listen, this is not something that men should have a voice in etc

I dont necessarily disagree with the statements, but they’re definitely common place