AIBU about this book at the library?

[LibrarianOfDoom]

However if the baby is transgender, she will feel that is not really a girl but a boy. She will want to do the things boys do, dress as a boy, have boy toys, have a boy's name and be referred to as he and him

This is a book directed at children, it was at my local library today and not in the "teen" section but the kids section. I don't mind children reading anything and everything as far as fiction goes but this is written as non fiction, as facts. It's telling a girl who wants to do "boy things" whatever the fuck that means she might be a boy.
People keep saying that no one is actively "transing" children, but what message does this give to children?

You can't compare this to people trying to avoid children being "turned" gay before anyone tries that one, you can't make someone want to have sex through education but you might well convince them that their gender is wrong if they don't fit in with stereotypes.

Why does it happen? No one knows why gender dysphoria happens. Some babies are born intersex, that is with genitals that are a mix of male and female. Some trans people might have all female or all male genitals but may have a different mix of hormones. Hormones are chemicals produced by glands in the the body that help is create our gender characteristics. For example testosterone helps to develop more facial and body hair and stop menstruation.

This confuses intersex conditions with transgenderism. This is pretty common as well as pretending hormones make you trans. As a woman with PCOS I take serious issue with it. It's also common for trans rights activists to use PCOS and claim it is an intersex condition, to show how supposedly common being intersex is- and then conflate the two.

The feeling of being in the wrong body can start from the age of two or three

Two FFS.

Meanwhile I'm feeling disgusted at myself because I really really want that book gone and I've never wanted a book taken out of a library before. Should I speak to the library or at least ask that they consider buying in something to give another counterargument to the book?

I'd be concerned that it's sending the message that girls might actually be boys just because they like dressing in a certain way or playing with particular toys.

I vaguely remember that when I was about four or five I really wanted to be a boy for some reason; I grew out of that soon afterwards.

Maybe you could have a word with the library? Or keep taking it out so no-one else can do so? I don't know if there are other books that would explain the issue of transgenderism in a better way that the library could buy instead.

Pretty shocking tbh.

The Author has probably never heard the term "Tomboy" ...

YANBU - I find this very worrying.

FFS the world has gone mad!

Just so I get this right, you want to ban books you disagree with?

minderful

Please point to the sentence where the OP says she wants the book banned?

She says she thinks it shouldn’t be in the library. That is not the same as wanting a book banned.

People have the right to buy whatever they want. Libraries, however, are public services, paid for by our taxes. I do not want my child growing up thinking that, because she likes trucks, she must be a boy. How fucking sad and limiting that is.

Shall we also have books in there teaching creationism? Or racial segregation? Or espousing how global warming isn’t real?

No one would think twice if someone asked to have such books removed from the library.

But no doubt if there is a book in there saying transgenderism is bollocks, that would be asked to be removed immediately.

@ThisIsTheFirstStep

I think you misunderstood what a question is. If I were able to "point at a sentence" then I wouldn't have asked a question.

dyageddit?

"Shall we also have books in there teaching creationism? Or racial segregation? Or espousing how global warming isn’t real?"

These aren't the same though, are they?

Racial segregation is an ideology and racial differences tend to be a little off-limits to science. Mein Kampf, for example, should be in libraries.

Global warming is proven to be real. The reasons for it are debated. Yes, arguments against man-made global warming should be available.

Yes, the bible should be in libraries.

"But no doubt if there is a book in there saying transgenderism is bollocks, that would be asked to be removed immediately."

Yes. Although weighted opinion or data should be allowed to remain.

You're free to deny that gender is innate. Others can think differently. Once nature vs nurture is proven (and your denial doesn't rely on your ideology, ad hoc arguments and painful ignorance of Ocam's razor) then information should be adjusted.

Until that point, opinion should be available.

minderful
The issue with your argument comparing this book to mein Kamf or a book saying transgenderism is bollocks is that this sort of material is primarily aimed at adults. In contrast, this book is aimed at young children, who should be protected and not influenced to feel a certain way. Whatever happened to letting kids be kids?

@MummyOfLittleDragon

I was replying to the previous poster, not comparing Mein Kampf to this book. They asked about racial segregation.

I don't think this book is influencing children but explaining how some children feel - some of it is factual and some of it is opinion.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a counter argument written in an age appropriate way because although I think gender or sex-based differences are predominantly nature (evolved) it is not yet proven to be the case.

@ThisIsTheFirstStep

Ah, I meant to say that a book is either banned or should be available in libraries. The OP said she wants "it gone". Might as well be banned and arguing about the difference between the two is completely missing the point.

i cant imagine a child reading a book like that and being like oh yeah wow great i'll be trans... and putting themselves through the agony it entails. toally agree about "boy things" - i hate the fact certain things are seen as appropriate activities for boys (eg climbing trees, football), and certain things are seen as appropriate for girls (knitting, doing hair).i wish it was a bit more like all activities were seen as equally appropriate for everyone, as with clothing, but i don't think that's ever going to happen.

I remember when I was very young that if we wore slacks or play certain games (this was in the 50’s) the other girls would tease us and say, “Oh she’s a boy”. Now this shit is real! How utterly confusing for children.

Instead of being my scruffy self as a little girl, now I’d be begging for pretty pink frocks and ribbons for my hair in case I turned into an actual boy.

Is it "appropriate for" or "usually liked by"?

I think we're beyond different levels of appropriateness dependent on the sex of the person but that doesn't alter the fact that girls and boys tend to enjoy different activities.

It’s very odd putting it in a ‘go on an adventure section’ tbh.

minderful
I get you were speaking to a pp. I agree that any book like this should have a counter balance but it would never happen. I’m against tax payers money from being spent on a book about transgenderism targeted as such a young audience. .

Any counter argument book would be burnt in the street if it were ever even allowed to be published. More than likely the author would have to self publish and possibly shortly thereafter they would be taken in by police for questioning for excitement of hate. The library employees would be harassed and possibly attacked. The police wouldn’t get involved as it would be seen to be taking sides.

I agree 100% with OP.

I know there will be a few thousand on here disagreeing but I honestly think we are encouraging young people to be trans.

A boy at school recently made a comment to my DD about her arms as she has what I guess you'd call muscly shoulders and is flat chested at 12. He told her she should check her birth certificate. Probably because after an arm wrestle with him, she very nearly won. She's 6 stone, slim with long hair and very pretty, and yes I am bias.

I spent my entire evening telling her she's a girl, she's muscly because she does manual work daily on our small holding and rides very strong ponies and she's not going to have huge boobs because I'm an AA.

I think our young people need protecting from having trans pushed at them.

A friend's ballet dancing 16 YO was told "you must be gay" by a kid who had been taunting him for weeks. He finally said "oh yeah sure, because I spend 3 nights a week surrounded by gorgeous girls and you spend your weekends lying on top of guys on the rugby field and showering together"

OH AND BTW, IM NOT HOMOPHOBIC OR TRANSPHOBIC

Boys can like shopping and girls motorbikes. Why does that equal trans?

I think I’d take it out of the Library and keep renewing it. Sounds like propaganda.

I’d take it out and lose it. They might not replace it!

Telling children they can change is sex is teaching them magical thinking under the guise of science and adult knowledge.

I know that in the world I grew up in, that seems to have come more and more back into fashion, I would have loved it if I had been told I could change into a boy. But they forget to tell them that their lives will be shortened and they will be rendered infertile. Why get bogged down in details, eh?

@Mummyoflittledragon

You just made a lot of things up though.

It seems like the OP, @TestingTestingWonTooFree, @parrotonmyshoulder and others value their safe space on MN to 'have the discussion' but aren't quite so keen on people holding different opinions.

Intelligent people present facts and facts and opinions as opinions and are open to changing their mind in the face of fact - sometimes opinion.

Stupid people present opinion as fact, they occupy the radical aspects of any argument and shut down debate.

I think you can guess the intelligence of those who want to stop the book being read and like to present their opinion as fact.

@Moimasturbate

What did your anecdote have to do with trans? It was childish name calling.

minderful I suggest if you want a serious argument, you drop the teenaged ‘dyagettit’ level of nonsense. It only makes you look foolish and I’m sure you are more educated than that. We’re all adults and can talk as such. If you want to convince someone of your argument, it tends to help if you don’t try to patronise them from the get-go.

Banning a book and a book being unavailable in a library are not the same thing on any level. Banning a book means it cannot be bought, sold or published. A book not being in a library means that the librarian has decided it is not suitable. People are still free to buy it if they like.

Everything else you say is splitting hairs. I see transgenderism as inherently dangerous and not something to be promoted. You don’t.

As for the Bible teahing creationism, I think you probably know that most don’t take the Bible as fact (even staunch Christians), whereas many on the extreme right do believe creationism to be factual and publish books supporting that argument. I find that inherently dangerous in a way the Bible is not, since it is generally considered to be a historical document by the vast majority of people in the UK.

Well you found the right place to find people that will agree with you on This topic

And off we go

Just so I get this right, you want to ban books you disagree with?

As it was incredibly clear that I never said or implied that I'm going to put you on my "mentally block due to goady fucker list"

Anyway to those who actually engaged, I am really uncomfortable with the fact that it's being presented as a factual book... and yes as a "go on an adventure" book! I mean really. WTF.

If there was a book about a trans kid in the fiction side written as a story this wouldn't bother me.

I don't like the idea of censoring books, but surely we must have a line when children are actually at risk? Doctors are warning us about social contagion regarding transgenderism and the result is artificial dangerous hormones that don't have long term results the use of in teenagers.

I can't imagine anyone would be comfortable with a book that helped children to "diagnose" themselves in any other way. Especially if the symptoms of the diagnosis were normal feelings everyone has.

It's dangerous.

that we don't know long term results of in teenagers.

Some trans people might have all female or all male genitals but may have a different mix of hormones. Hormones are chemicals produced by glands in the the body that help is create our gender characteristics. For example testosterone helps to develop more facial and body hair and stop menstruation

That is a weazily sentence - it's all kinda true, but, also muddies the waters very well by having it after the intersex explanation, and describing hormones as created in the body - as if trans people naturally have these different hormone levels, rather than that they would be artificially suppressing/supplementing with them.

It's very cleverly written propoganda to my mind.

And just like I'd object to 'mein kampf for kiddies' being on display, I think I feel the same about this - I think that for kids, you need to stick with the everything is for everyone, be kind, be yourself message rather than talking about body modification.

I agree with the passive resistance of taking it out and repeatedly renewing it....