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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel really bad for some prisoners?

32 replies

sharkirasharkira · 22/04/2018 22:02

Just this basically!

When I was at uni I did my thesis on crime, criminals and recidivism (reoffending) across several different cultures. The numbers, especially in America, were shocking.

At the time and to this day I am struck by just how many youths, especially in USA, enter a life of crime just because they have terrible role models or because they literally don't know any other way of life other than gangs/drug dealing etc.

Its so sad that so many enter life basically without any hope of having a 'normal' productive life and get are so ostracised by society for being criminals wheras in reality they have little choice. Aibu to feel really sorry for them?

OP posts:
HyenaHappy · 22/04/2018 22:05

YANBU to feel sorry for them but also remember that they have victims. The victims are the ones that I feel even more sorry for as they had even less choice in being a victim of crime.

Original poster
sharkirasharkira · 22/04/2018 22:10

Obviously I do feel sorry for the victims and the perpetrators should still be punished for their crimes but i think sometimes in the criminal justice system the penalties are either too harsh or not harsh enough depending on circumstances Sad

OP posts:
lhastingsmakeup · 22/04/2018 22:13

I saw a twitter thread recently where a 19 year old in London was arrested and sentenced, and was then told that he would be deported as soon as his sentence was over. He was devastated as he had spent his entire life here and doesn’t know anyone in his ‘home’ country. All of this was posted by his social worker - she was equally devestated as she had worked with his family for years and tried to get him to leave gang life. There were loads of replies stating how evil the uk government is etc and how heartbroken they feel for him.

Whilst deportation is absolutely horrible, I just can’t bring myself to sympathise with people that hurt/attack/rob etc others. I know people that turn to a life of crime can have terribly hard upbringings, I’m not begrudging that. It’s just hard for me to excuse stabbing or robbing someone. You’re not unreasonable but I just see it differently. I wouldn’t care if someone was shoplifting food or even selling weed to survive, but not when it comes to hurting others.

Puffycat · 22/04/2018 22:18

So feel sad for the social mess that sadly many people live in.
I don’t feel sad for prisoners at all. I feel that the social justice system is all to cock and sentences rely on the judge and the government or how good your lawyer is.
There are some crimes that there isn’t a suitable jail sentence for...........

Lookatyourwatchnow · 22/04/2018 22:22

What else do you suggest should happen to criminals? Which criminals do you feel sorry for?

Juiceylucy09 · 22/04/2018 22:23

I have seen so many fall into a life of crime through bad childhoods, drug addiction and I have got a small bit if sympathy.

Not near as much sympathy as I have towards their victims. People scared in their own home. Street crime is so violent too. This area has changed so much Dublin, even now from the country side there are so many more violent random attacks and break ins. I don't know if it's new psycho drugs they take. I actually fear for my children and all the good people the area.

Pandoraphile · 22/04/2018 22:24

"Devastated" that he's being deported after knowingly, willingly and intentionally breaking the law of this country?? No sympathy from me I'm afraid.

Juiceylucy09 · 22/04/2018 22:30

America yes. I watched a documentary and I remember a young guy, he robbed a house, the homeowner shot his partner in crime. He was sentence d for his friends death and the break in. Though I'd say the homeowners lives we're ruined too.

Storm4star · 22/04/2018 22:31

I have worked extensively in this area and I think the thing is, you can feel sorry for an offenders childhood/situation/external factors while at the same time not condoning what they have done. Many of them are not inheriently “evil”. I also worked with victims and many said to me “I just want to know that he’s sorry that he won’t do this again” (I use he as the majority of the offenders were male). I have also recently been the victim of a crime and of course I want to see him punished. It’s a complex area. No easy answers. But to answer your question I think YANBU to feel sorry for some of them.

FASH84 · 22/04/2018 22:35

Sympathy doesn't help, empathy does. I work in probation. For those talking about punishment it depends what your end goal is. There's the point that harsher sentences don't equal fewer crimes. It's why the US has a recidivism rate of around 75% (with the death penalty), the UK around 30% and Norway 14% (2016). Norwegian sentences are super lenient their justice system is very rehabilitation focussed. Check out Halden prison in Norway, I went with work last year it was incredible and so successful. Surely the end result we want is fewer offences and less reoffending and therefore fewer victims?

pinkie1982 · 22/04/2018 22:38

I didn't until I came across medium secure MH units, where they are held indefinitely. Illness is the cause in some cases, choice is then removed

Original poster
sharkirasharkira · 23/04/2018 18:26

Not all prisoners, obviously! There are some who are just depraved and evil and deserve everything that they get. Others are just extremely selfish and feel that they are entitled to just do whatever they want and I have no sympathy for them either.

The ones I feel sympathy for are those who are basically born into terrible situations and it is almost inevitable that they will end up in the system at some point. The ones who have drug dealers, prostitues, murderers etc etc, as close family members and so have no decent har working role models, the ones who are born into and live in poverty, that don't have support they need to get a decent education and escape that life. Those that have mental health problems but no money for treatment, or the services just aren't there.

More of this is applicable in America, I did a lot of research on American prison systems at Uni and some of the stories are absolutely heartbreaking. Like the homeless man who stole a jacket because it was snowing and he lived on the streets. It was his third 'strike' so now he is in prison for the rest of his life.

The Norwegian prison system is great but is not a perfect solution that would work in every country unfortunately. I think the disparity between rich and poor is smaller there than in America and the UK, plus the taxes are much higher to fund the more expensive prisons. I don't think people would be happy to pay higher taxes so prisons can be nicer because most people believe that prison is about punishment when really it is, and should be, about rehabilitation.

OP posts:
Ifonlyitwasthateasy · 23/04/2018 18:36

Ihastings why do you pity the young man who was deported?
The clues in your post, his social worker had tried for years to get him to leave family life, he had intervention and he had help.
He still lead a life involved with gang crime. He had no desire to change. Why should he remain in the county having resources poured in to help him when it doesn’t work?
There are plenty other more deserving people who need input from social workers/services who can’t get it.
He had the chance to move away from that life, didn’t, what else should be done? Give him some more social work input so he can re-offend again?

Ifonlyitwasthateasy · 23/04/2018 18:36

*leave gang life not family life

Original poster
sharkirasharkira · 23/04/2018 18:46

I think the trouble is for a lot of young people, gang life IS family life. They may have no actual family, or their family are/were abusive, kicked them out/they have no contact with them etc. The gang fills that role. They don't feel alone in the gang, even if they are expected to do horrible things, they know the other members will always have their backs. It provides them with opportunities to earn money (drug dealing, robberies and so on), their other options for work may be limited due to not having finished school or not having any qualifications or job history.

I can't say if any of that is true for that specific individual who got deported but it is true for many gang members.

OP posts:
CherryChasingDotMuncher · 23/04/2018 18:49

YABU, I think more focus needs to be on the victims. I also don't buy that some people don't have a choice but to love a life of crime. Granted, it's what they've been raised with so they probably don't know better, but it's still a choice to hurt people for personal gains.

Kursk · 23/04/2018 18:54

If you can’t do the time......

Prisons need to be nasty places, people should be scared of prison.

Ifonlyitwasthateasy · 23/04/2018 18:55

That may all well be true. But if years of social work intervention didn’t help him to change, why should The tax payer throw more money at the problem?
I may have been more understanding if the arguement was he was a young man who had no support. But he did. Still committed crimes. And now he faces deportation. Actions, consequences.....
the nice social work do good approach (which may help many) didn’t help him.
Lost cause. No more chances....

SilverySurfer · 23/04/2018 18:57

Pandoraphile
"Devastated" that he's being deported after knowingly, willingly and intentionally breaking the law of this country?? No sympathy from me I'm afraid.

Zero sympathy from me too and this lot can go back where they came from too: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9475500/Eastern-European-criminals-blamed-for-surge-in-migrant-offences.html

My sympathy is reserved wholly for the victims of criminals.

TheHulksPurplePants · 23/04/2018 19:01

YANBU, but good luck convincing the eye for an eye crowd. They don't seem to realize that the vast majority of those in prison have no eyes left to take, and haven't since childhood.

Kursk · 23/04/2018 19:05

"Devastated" that he's being deported after knowingly, willingly and intentionally breaking the law of this country?? No sympathy from me I'm afraid.

I am sure he probably knew that deportation was on the cards when he committed the crime. He took a gamble with his future and lost.

Claire90ftm · 23/04/2018 19:05

@FASH84 You do realise that empathy is only something you can have if you've been in the same position as the other person? As in, you've both been to prison and know what they're going through.

I feel sorry for them too. Some of them have had horrific childhoods and were robbed of the opportunity to have a normal life. It's terribly sad and you can see, in some cases, how they got to where they are. But, at the same time, they do need to face the consequences. I feel as though they should be offered therapy though.

Mandatorymongoose · 23/04/2018 19:13

I once had a frustrating and thought provoking lecture on how basically freedom of choice was a total illusion and nothing was really an individual's fault.

Any choice you make is made in the context of circumstances, of your background, your previous experiences, the people and things you've encountered so far. I might say I would never steal but maybe if I had lived the life of the homeless man mentioned up thread then my actions might have been identical to his because my experiences up to that point would have led me to believe that was the choice I should make or needed to make at the time. That wouldn't be my fault that would just be the hand life dealt me.

Prison should offer opportunities to change so that future choices can be different. If it doesn't do that it is a pointless exercise and that is not the fault of the prisoners.

Original poster
sharkirasharkira · 23/04/2018 19:13

The trouble is Kursk, making prisons horrible and prison sentances harsh is, as a PP stated, it doesn't work! If you look at so called 'third world' countries, some of the prisons are absolutely hellish and the conditions are appauling. In many South East Asian countries (Thailand, etc) they have the death penalty and yet people still smuggle drugs and commit crimes. Same in the USA, it doesn't put people off. They know that going to prison isn't exactly a barrel of laugh but for numerous reasons they obviously feel that they don't have much choice but to risk it, or that the lives they are living are worse than prison. It isn't a simple issue.

Exactly Hulk, I think its hard for most of us who have absolutely no experience of what life is like for some of these prisoners to understand their way of thinking or why they do the things they do.

OP posts:
mirime · 23/04/2018 19:29

@CherryChasingDotMuncher

YABU, I think more focus needs to be on the victims.

Many people in our prisons have mental health problems, learning disabilities and/or have been through what we laughingly call the 'care' system.

Sometimes it's not as clear cut as you seem to think, and sometimes focusing on the criminal can help prevent that person making more victims.