To be shocked that this is happening in Britain in 2018?

[Spending2muchtimeonMN]

Masked men try to prevent women from attending a lawful, public meeting to discuss the impact of proposed changes to the law on women's rights:

www.facebook.com/julie.bindel/videos/pcb.10160135970780316/10160135907955316

sentmai

In the nicest possible way you are a distraction, no doubt it is interesting that you are a tory voting competitive fighter, loud, tall, fit with SIA accreditations with two typical children and a husband with a title. Quite an unusual combination, however, the point is that nobody in our country should be intimidated and harassed for their views and to feel frightened by masked men.

Lets get back to the point that we need to have this whole debate addressed in parliament in the usual way. A full and frank assessment and investigation and debate needs to take place, and to consider the possible negative outcomes to any changes in the law surrounding self ID to all concerned.

Until this happens it is just who can screech the loudest and the endless shutting down of debate.

"In the nicest possible way you are a distraction"

Yes... No dissent!

"Quite an unusual combination"

I was a barmaid whilst doing my PhD and the door staff explained how I'd earn much more for less working for them so I moved roles. You'd be surprised at how many people on 'the doors' are quite clever.

"Until this happens it is just who can screech the loudest and the endless shutting down of debate."

There, we agree. There's a lot of screeching from either extreme and a lot of apathy in the middle.

I think we can predict what will happen ...

My BIL is a knight of the realm and he is over 6ft tall. He would never follow a single woman down a road for fear of intimidating her - yes we have had this conversation in the past in which he enlightened me about how a good man should behave. He is a great man, well deserving of his knighthood.

I think there's a subtle difference between intimidation, perceived threat and actual violence

There is nothing subtle about it. I've taken English relatives on the 'Falls Road' tour and when we got to the Shankill Road (both in Belfast), they felt intimidated and wanted to leave immediately. They didn't feel like this on the 'Falls Road' though because they understood the oppression associated with it.

My BiL is 6'3". Very broad. Ex military. Loud and tall and confident. His very presence can be intimidating but to liken that to assault or violence is ridiculous.

A few years ago I was offended by an AIBU consensus (not my thread) that he should stop or cross the road if he was coincidentally following a woman on foot.

Trying not to derail the thread, but valuing your BILs feelings over those of the women he might scare by following them and/or not being able to wrap your head around the fact that women who don't know him will be scared is not exactly bolstering your claim to be the only person here evaluating the situation at the event in Bristol in a reasonable way.

sentmai

I can't predict what is going to happen, so I am surprised you can?

I think that defining a woman is difficult without offending one group. I have no issue with offending people when I know I'm correct but tread carefully when I'm unsure.

Unfortunately, offence isn't relevant to science.

I think that gender is innate

There is no agreement in the scientific community that gender is innate, or even agreement on what the word 'gender' means.

My view boils down to thinking self-ID will have little to no effect on anyone.

The concept of self-id is that everybody has a gender and that it is necessary to segregate people according to gender, but also that gender is completely subjective and nobody can explain what gender is. It doesn't make any sense at all.

On the other hand. There are clear consequences to having female biology. You can't identify out of them. We need to be able to talk to girls and boys clearly about science and facts. I know that if my daughter has sex with somebody of the opposite sex she will need contraception or it is likely that she will get pregnant. I couldn't care less whether the person she has sex with thinks they are on 'team boy' or 'team girl'.

Words, laws and language matter. I don't want to cause offence and I don't think it will do any harm aren't good justifications for a law.

sentmai

Secondly please don't misquote me I did not say that the women trying to protect their rights were 'screeching', that comment was directed at the masked men who were screeching vile abusive comments and trying to shut down debate as you well know.

I have only heard reasonable, articulate and calm responses from the women whom are simply debating the problems around self ID and are expecting the government representing them to listen.

I would have happily stopped using TERF if anyone had said it was offensive. They haven't.

@sentMai. For the sake of clarity then: I am saying your use of the word is offensive and needlessly inflammatory. If you are as reasonable as you say, it would be very easy to stop.

I think that gender is innate and that nature plays a large role. Therefore, it's entirely likely that people are born into the wrong body; the brain doesn't match the gonad.

As a biochemist, I'm very interested to know what the mechanism is for this? Separating gender from sex is hard because of the number of variables, but the vast majority of evidence seems to be that many of the things some people think of as inherent are actually social. The main physiological and anatomical differences between the sexes are pretty well documented.

I would suggest that a mechanism for gender being innate is sufficiently different from our current understanding to be nobel prize stuff.

A few years ago I was offended by an AIBU consensus (not my thread) that he should stop or cross the road if he was coincidentally following a woman on foot.

Wow, you offend easily. My dh is similar height and build and he is very conscious of how he might appear to a woman walking alone in a secluded area. He wouldn't dream of thinking "how dare she think that of me" over "don't want anyone to feel even slightly worried simply by where I am walking".

The Falls Road/Shankill Road thing is really right. I've been in Belfast (Falls Road mostly) as a child and young adult during the height of the troubles and someone just looking at you on a bus can feel extraordinarily intimidating - it is one of my most vivid memories actually, that bus trip into town.

My view boils down to thinking self-ID will have little to no effect on anyone.

Well that is one point of view. There are others. People want to debate this important issue. Go along to a meeting to discuss self ID and explain your view and listen to other views.

I think 'person' is in the brain

So how are you deciding that the person in the brain is a male or female, and why does it matter? If some men feel 'feminine', isn't that just evidence that attributes associated with femininity are also normal in men?

The thing that makes the difference is whether somebody has a body type that produces eggs, or a body type that produces sperm. Everything else is just being human.

Humans are a very social species, and we can't see into each other's brains, so the socialization that a person receives and how other people treat them will be based on what other people can see (their sex). So, even if we were to agree that brain gender existed (I don't), I'm not seeing any good reason why it should be expected to override the sex that's clearly visible in terms of the perceptions of other people.

@merrymouse

"Unfortunately, offence isn't relevant to science."

It certainly has an impact and we'd be foolish to deny it. Cordelia Fine winning any kind of award is a wonderful example.

"I don't think it will do any harm aren't good justifications for a law."

True. However, these laws will bring the UK into line with many other EU countries. They make it easier for trans people and, as far as I can see, have minute impact on anyone.

Those countries have had no issues from their inclusive laws.

That is a good justification.

@summerinthecountr

I didn't misquote you and it's who.

I would have happily stopped using TERF if anyone had said it was offensive. They haven't.

It is offensive. Of course you have the right to say it. But at least know how that comes across to others.

Again: I have seen reasonable, thoughtful arguments from both trans people and radical feminists on the issues around gender and self-ID. I've also seen some utter nonsense put forward as fact, some childish petty spite, and some really unpleasant, venomous, threatening behaviour. However to the best of my knowledge, the most violent, threatening stuff (and actual physical attacks) has come mainly from the trans rights side (not necessarily from trans people but from those who side with them... and who may well be the usual lefty posh boys who love any excuse to bash feminists, feminism or women.)

I think what bothers me the most about the protests shown above is, as PP have said, the likes of the BNP and UKIP don't seem to get this level of abuse and intimidation when they want to have a meeting. To an extent, if someone called a meeting and invited a radical Islamic speaker who was known to support eg death for gay people and violent subjugation of women, I can't see there being this level of protest and the police not doing anything about it.

I agree. I am female and characteristics I have can be normal in men and women. eg I was always a tom boy, don't usually wear make up and I don't bother too much about how I dress, like achieving at work etc and those are female as much as male things.

Anyway whilst I support the right of peaceful protest it should never go as far as preventing people being heard or attending events whatever side people are on and whatever the cause.

@Elendon yes ofc. Actual physical hurt or damage to the "victim".
Someone punching u in the face is violence. Someone standing in ur way is not.

I hope I won't be accused of derailing a thread: I'm reply to direct questions.

@donquixotedelamancha @Noqonterfy

What is the acceptable word for an anti self-ID person? My basis for TERF being acceptable was its use in usernames.

As I think I've shown, I'm not looking to offend anyone.

Are you saying that we cannot hazard a good guess as to whether a brain is male or female based on physical differences mid-gestation?
Are you saying that male hormones have no effect on brain development? Are you saying that brain function in males and females (from birth) is the same?

@merrymouse

"So how are you deciding that the person in the brain is a male or female, and why does it matter? If some men feel 'feminine', isn't that just evidence that attributes associated with femininity are also normal in men?"

I'm not.

However, if someone has traits that are usually found in women and a man has an overwhelming number of these traits, who are we to say that they aren't a woman?

Again, I think this basically comes down to whether you think there is typically a male or female brain. You may say that a man feeling feminine is proof of gender being 'wrong' but it isn't any more valid than those who take it as proof that people are sexed from birth.

I think there are two types of people who're not trans who're causing problems in these kinds of scenarios. One is the men just looking for an excuse to bully women (in a different era they'd have joined Fathers for Justice, and Class War has been full of them for a while), and the other is young women heavily involved in a certain kind of liberal feminism, some of whom may call themselves "they", but they have no intention of transitioning in any other way (meds, surgery, even hair or clothes really). So basically standard gender conforming young women, some of whom think of themselves as genderqueer or something similar, but who are not in any way what most people would think of if you said "trans". Both of these groups were well in evidence at Speakers Corner.

However, if someone has traits that are usually found in women and a man has an overwhelming number of these traits, who are we to say that they aren't a woman?

What traits are usually found in women?

Interestingly Julie Bindel wrote this in 2004:

www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7

Traits usually found in women - menstruation, an ability to get pregnant for a significant part of your life.

Personality traits - everyone has these, they vary widely.

What traits are usually found in women and not in men? How can we differentiate innate qualities from behaviour that is conditioned by stereotypes?

Woman- an adult human of the class that produces eggs
Man-an adult human of the class that produces sperm.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

We can't.

It's almost as if you just stumbled across the great nature vs nurture debate and its currently unanswerable question.

Almost ...