Firearms certificate

[LowMaintenance101]

Posting here for traffic...
My DH needs advice.
He has applied for a renewal of his shotgun licence. The local police authority have written to our GP asking them to confirm that he hasn't been diagnosed with any of a list of medical conditions. Our GP has responded saying that they are not qualified to comment on his mental health.
We have spoken with the Practice Manager to point out that they are not asking for an opinion, just confirmation that he has not been diagnosed with anything already. She has basically come out and said that as a practice they don't want to assist anyone with firearms applications.
DH has offered to go for a psychological assessment but police have said this is not sufficient (basically rubbishing an entire profession). He has also asked if he can apply to get his notes and have the police look over them, but they said no.
Firearms certificate runs out tomorrow.
Guns have already been lodged with a dealer so we don't have possession of them.
Any ideas how we proceed?
Is there such a thing as a private GP who would be happy to look at the notes and complete the form?

GPs are hardly suggesting they know better than the law. What they are declining to do is make a statement - to which they could be held to account - about the mental state of someone they may never even have met. Seems reasonable to me.

And I live in a very gun oriented area with lots of farmland, including the noise of rabbit shooting and hunting most weeks.

A GP has no moral obligation to assist here.

As someone has said already you should talk to BASC they'll be able to help you. They are incredibly knowledgable about firearms law (more so than the police I'm afraid).

Sorry OP! I've just seen that you said you were going to contact BASC, apologies for repeating the advice.

You're definitely in safe hands with them, they're excellent at getting this sort of thing sorted.

Yet apparently it’s not uncommon for a GP to decide they know better than the law on this issue..

The GP is just not offering the private service of firearms letters. They aren't "knowing better than the law". It's just not a service they offer. An NHS GP is required to offer NHS services, they are not required to offer private services. Firearms letters, fitness for marathon letters, fitness for scuba diving letters, they are all private and the GP can choose whether they want to offer that service or not. If the police want a statement from a GP, the patient will have to find a GP who is willing to offer that private service.

I'm a GP and I wouldn't offer firearms letters. Mainly because I already finish my NHS work too late, I don't want to stay at work later to do extra private work.

TheLastSoala the point is that GPs specifically don't think they are above the law.
Many GPs feel the police should make their own assessments.
I am a GP with a firearms license myself so can see both sides.
I write the assessment but usually make it very clear that I can only base it on the record I hold, that it is purely a factual account from the notes and offers no personal opinion as to their suitability.

The police only ask if the GP is aware of any medical issue, they aren't asked to provide an expert opinion that they don't have any relevant condition.

But the GP is under no obligation to review the patient's notes and respond to the Police. It's not their NHS job. They can respond and say "actually we don't offer private firearms letters so we haven't checked the notes regarding this". A lot of GPs are really busy with NHS work and have no desire to stay late to do extra private work, reading somebody's medical notes.

A lot of historical medical notes are not very clear to skim through esp if the patient has moved practices and the old notes don't fit in with the new prsctice's computer system. It takes time to look through the notes in detail. And if you just skim you might miss something important. Most of my patients I don't know from Adam. I don't want to have to pour through someone's medical history for £68 after a long day when I could be going home to my kids.

I agree a GP shouldn’t be asked to vouch for someone but that’s not they’ve been asked to do. Just a simple question as to whether someone has been or is being treated for mental health issues. It’s a simple enough question to answer yes or no to. Seems like they’re trying to politicise something for no reason. I’d be furious. I know some people don’t like guns but there are legitimate reasons to own one and if doctors start inserting beliefs nothing to do with the question where does it end? I suspect the doctor will get support on this topic from people failing to see the bigger picture

The police only ask if the GP is aware of any medical issue, they aren't asked to provide an expert opinion that they don't have any relevant condition

I'm guessing you're not a GP? People complain about us for things that aren't our fault in the slightest.

If, god forbid, somebody carried out a mass shooting with a legally owned gun, and the GP had said they had no diagnosed mental health conditions, but it later emerged they were mentally ill, then the GP would be crucified in the tabloids and have journalists camped outside their house. The GP would be accused of having missed the signs. They might even end up getting struck off.

No diagnosed mental problems means exactly that. Not undiagnosed, do you think he’s ok blah blah. Stick to the facts. It’s the same as a job reference where firms refuse to say anything positive except X worked for this company between the dates of this and that

Agreed Bryher. I'm an ex copper and the police are already the ones crucified for allowing someone a licence when something appalling happens. No doubt that will extend to anyone with a hand in the decision making.

As for trawling people's notes - I assume paper notes have not been transposed onto computer systems yet?

Even mine, now aged nearly 40, were 2 packets of notes taped together after years of hospital interventions, and I was by no means a regular at the surgery! Imagine having to read all that. For £68? And all that responsibility? I don't think so.

And if doctors can legitimately refuse then the licensing laws need to change as you can’t have something predicted on a positive GP statement when the norm isn’t to give one

I sympathise if they think the buck is being passed to them but like I said they’re not asked to vouch anything. It’s a yes or no question as to whether you’re aware of something or not

Really interesting reading here.
I would absolutely understand if a GP was a contentious objector - I completely get that not everyone is pro firearms of any sort.
The GP from Dunblane- completely understand that position.
For DH - he has had a certificate for 5 years. Shooting is his only real interest outside the home and he takes the responsibility of owning guns very seriously.
He is just stuck in the middle of the police and the GP practice who have both taken their own positions on the new rules.
Hopefully he gets it sorted soon.
Really appreciate you all taking the time to reply.

Try the Army Rumour Service. They have a shooting forum & should be able to advise you.

It's got nothing to do with doctor's political beliefs, most GPs don't want to read someone's medical notes and take on the small chance of an adverse outcome for £68. Most are really busy doing their day job and just don't want to take any extra private work on. Also in many practices the money goes into the practice, not the GPs pocket :)

A lot of GPs feel horribly anxious about making a mistake, or missing something, in their existing work. They just don't want to take on any more risk unnecessarily.

You might feel it's low risk from your knowledge of guns, GPs don't necessarily know anything about shotgun licencing, or shotguns and often they don't really know their patients well these days.

And if there is an adverse outcome even if the GP did nothing wrong, if someone wants to blame the GP the various complaints/ fitness to practice procedures can easily go on for a year +, even if there is nothing in them. So a year of worrying about the outcome and having to explain in any job applications that you have an open complaint/ investigation against you. It has made many GPs very very cautious.

@TheLastSoala I work in firearms and can quite confidently say that a lot of crime is committed using shotguns! Lots of robbery, a few murders, burglaries etc. Shotgun theft is fairly common also. They're not being stolen by the good guys are they?

Doesn't answer OPs question but just wanted to point this out. I've seen many, many a sawn off shotgun...

Yes, I don't really understand what it involves to be a GP these days.
As I said, I was hoping a doctor might see the thread and respond.

I don’t blame the GPs but the rules have to change if everyone refuses otherwise no one could ever obtain a licence full stop. Are we saying nobody in the entire country should have a firearms licence as that is ultimately what would happen if the same MO was carried out nationwide

You can’t go private or ask anyone else for a reference as the question relates to their medical records. Factually. Not opinion. Any private doctor would need the records. A national database would solve that problem but it is a long way off and most people are not comfortable with there being one

Bloody hell! All those moaning about GPs refusing to cooperate! Why the hell should they?

The BMA don't like it, it was foisted on them and it is disingenuous to say they won't be held accountable at any time. Of course they will! No senior policeman will take a hit if he can pass the buck and the meeja would love to hang out the police, GPs and mad gunmen together... Dunblane was more than enough evidence of that!

As it is, I now now from asking our club chair, the police wait and, if they get no response and have no reason to think otherwise, they just assume no news is good news and issue the certificate - as they have always done! Making the change in regs redundant, though that has always been the case when it came down to the GP data (which has always been there, or at least sine the 1990s, when we were first licensed).

Yes, the Firearms Department said that had the GP just not replied, they would have assumed everything was fine and issued the certificate anyway. Crazy.