To not let BIL see ds

[MrsHelpconfused]

Need advice as I am not sure if I am doing the right thing...please be gentle with me.

My DS is 5, and my BIL (dh's brother) wants to see him, but due to prior behaviour I am very reluctant.

He is a bully, when family went to North America for a reunion he had his sister in tears (crying, really sobbing saying you make me feel like shit), he make everyone upset, uncomfortable and eventually my DH blew up at him over his behavior.

When DS was 10 months old he took him and dunked into the sea even though the water was too cold and my son screamed/cried and I said no and he still did it because in his words DH was being too precious with DS...

On another occasion we got out of a car, just put 10 month old into buggy, while sorting bags out, he took DS walked away pushing buggy without asking me or dh, taking him to a lady he was interested in, basically using DS to curry favor.

I do not want DS meeting/talking to or skyping him, I'm I being unreasonable, and my DH agrees with me but he feels sorry for him,sees the good in him...DH feels stuck in the middle as BIL wants to see DS and feels it is wrong that I don't let him because he wants to see DS and he's such a lovely boy...(in his words)...

What do you think? Does the fact that he hit his ex wife over 10 years ago matter? And in my opinion he may have hit her more than once/done other things (perhaps minimizing what he has done)...by my DHs account their marriage was turbulent/shouting/arguments...(that it while family were around, most likely much much worse behind close doors so to speak.

Reposted as I had put my ds and dh names on previous post:

Please help me understand this email he sent DH and me:

Dear x

I was just about to send this and then got your email. Thank you. Ok x (my sister) was trigger-happy but still completely out of order. (My) email (points that I were in my OP I emailed to him
) to me is not a balanced view at all of events. The truth is important here and the truth needs to take into account nuance and different points of view not an extremist, over-reactionary one.

(Me)

I am shocked, hurt and saddened by the words you and your sister have used.

I did send you an email offering the opportunity to chat maybe about a year ago. Unfortunately I don't have a copy. (This ended up in my spam box, as did this email, I never received it, not saying he is lying about it.

I am also very confused about the severity of your response. Before the Canada incident you may have forgotten but you sent an email to (Current gf) telling her that you thought she had been a good influence on me. I think we had probably just seen each other at x's wedding. I remember having a walk with you, dh and ds in the Dales and telling you about the difficult time I was having with(gf) I remember ds enjoying seeing his uncle.

I have waited a short while now to compose a response. I wanted to make sure I didn't descend into using the infantile and abusive language your sister has used towards me. I will not be responding to the ridiculous, OTT email she sent; it really isn't worth engaging with someone who can behave like this. However, please pass on this important message which may have been relayed to her after I spoke to dh yesterday: if I receive one more sentence from her using such insulting, vile, poisonous and aggressive language based on untruths, I will be going to the police to report her for cyber-bullying.

Now I will write something in my defense that I hope will make you think about how hurtful your words have been to me in those 2 emails over the last 18 months or so. I have never written an unkind word to you. I am not even going to try to understand where your poisoned thinking about me has come from. I do worry what dh has said about me in the past and how you have interpreted it. What is important is for me to tell you that it is not ok for you to behave like this. I accept that you don't like me and that you don't want anything to do with me. It is very sad that you are controlling my not seeing ds/n and I can only hope that one day this may change. I understand that this is a problem between you and dh and I wouldn't want this to become a barrier in your relationship with each other.

Unfortunately your interpretation and knowledge of the key events that you have listed as reasons why you don't want me to see DS are extremely faulty and some of it untrue. So in my defense I will need to go through them:

1. I was not abusive in my relationship to (ex wife). There was one incident at the end of our relationship where I lost control out of extreme desperation and rough-handled (ex wife). In fact I spoke to (ex wife) yesterday and she laughed at the suggestion that I was abusive. I think you will find that the fact my 3 wonderful children want to spend time with me on a regular basis and love me as a dad who moved to Dorset to be with them over the last 12 years is pretty glowing praise. Ask (ex wife)!

1. The situation in (North America) 18 months ago is complex and has to do with sibling rivalries and perhaps the big mistake I made which was to suggest we all stayed under the same roof at dh and bil sister. I became quickly irritated by dh/bil sister drunkenness in the evenings. I did not bully her into tears; (he did she said sobbing to him you make me feel like shit), I said some hurtful truths about the way she was drinking and it being very annoying at the time. I think she was drunk in the early evenings because perhaps she couldn't cope with the emotional stress of us being all together again after so many years. dh and I fell out quickly, again due to ancient, sibling rivalry. I behaved in an unkind way at times; I was arrogant and judgemental; it was very contextual. Unfortunately you are using examples of situations that you did not even witness to come to disturbingly untrue conclusions about me. I behaved badly in that situation; I am not like this 99.9% of the time. I have a lovely relationship with my sister over skype. I do understand that dh was very upset at that time and wanted some comfort by talking to you. Unfortunately you made conclusions again based on dh version of what was happening. You either shouldn't have got involved, which is difficult as dh is your husband, or you should have stepped back and taken a much more measured approach. (I was in the UK with ds and dh had a reunion with bil, their sister, another brother and parents, my dh skyped and emailed me repeatedly upset with his behavior)

1. The incidents in (town in south west england: I was being perhaps overly vigorous and trying to be the wacky uncle by dunking ds in the sea. (I said no) You suggest I was getting back at dh somehow which I just find ridiculous. It's called playing and I didn't realize it would have caused such offence that you have obviously allowed to fester away in you. At that time I was also going through a very difficult situation trying to be back with ex gf and being constantly rejected by her. I wanted to show ds off as my sweet nephew; perhaps, yes, I was trying to impress ex gf in some way. It was brief and I did quickly mention to dh that I was popping across the way to ex gf place of work. (according to dh he whisked ds off and he didn't ask or really tell him). Again to suggest that this is some kind of abusive behaviour towards a child is unbelievable.

dh tells me you sisters like to tell it how it is; you are passionate and stick up for yourselves. These examples that you have cited are NOT good examples of you applying some measured, calmer and more intelligent responses to situations.

I won't be asking to see ds/nagain as it obviously upsets dh and I don't want to lose the relationship I have with him. It is very sad that your reasons for me not seeing ds/nare completely flawed. I have spent time and energy composing this email out of a modicum of respect I have for you as an intelligent human being and wife to my brother. I do not intend to write or communicate with you any more until the day you might mature a little and apologise for this outrageous behaviour.

[Edited by MNHQ to protect OP's privacy]

Why are you doing a second thread ?

I am so sorry this is long and complicated but I honestly am so confused, the whole situation is making me feel sick with stress. I am not going to reply to him, but I feel he is twisting everything and making me doubt and question myself to the point of insanity.

MN deleted it as I hadn't removed dh and ds names x

omg that's so long ...

I didn't want to read and run but the letters are confusing. Does it change back to his email? Or is it yours? I think you've left you names in too if you're concerned about that.

It'd be a fuck off from me. Nasty behaviour, nasty email. You & your DH need to make up your mind to put your son first, and leave it at that. You stand for your child first, not worry about other people. Get on with your lives. Your BIL is a grown man why is he being given so much airtime in your life anyway?

Your DH needs to man up and put an end to this stupid situation once and for all. Ridiculous that his brother seems to want to control your DS and hasn't been told to get to fuck out of it yet.

sorry, I had to repost and change info

As for him twisting everything, making you doubt yourself...errmm ..he's not your man, why is he being afforded so much power?

Move on.

Ridiculous - you had 3 pages of comments - and you only had to ask tfor the names to be edited.

I said it before - and I'll say it again - you are ridiculously overinvested in your BILs relationships - they are none of your business. If you don't want to see him, then done see him, don't skype him etc. You are an adult and you can choose whether to or not.

However you cannot dictate that other people cannot see him, you cannot keep him away from weddings, funerals, Sunday lunch at the MILs etc and you have no right to try and manipulate/dictate those guest lists.

IMHO you have no right to isolate your DS from extended family if his father is willing to facilitate those meetings - but that will be an unpopular opinion as babies are seen on MN as a mothers personal possession.

FWUIW I think your behaviour is utterly ridiculous expecting him to account for his personal relationships to you. You can discuss it with your DH of course and think what you do - but sending emails? That really oversteps boundaries. Any anyone he forwards those email onto will think its you with the behavioural problems

forget him ignore and move on

Dear brother in law, we don’t want you to see DS so you can’t.
Lots of love x

Your post is long and confusing. I take it that you have already had many replies too on a previous thread.

I think you sound overinvested in your bil. You don't have to see him, but you cannot dictate what others (including your dh) do.

I have never stopped dh from contacting or seeing him.

Previous post was deleted due to outing info and I have for a good many months nothing to do with him, ignored, not thought about him just got on with my life. He then asks dh to see DS, he knows why he isn't allowed because of previous behavior but dh avoids confrontation and has in his words pussy footed about instead of saying no and don't ask again, and its led to a massive clusster of stress, emails and phones calls between dh and bil, I send 1 email saying why he isnt suitable to be around Ds, hr then Skypes his sister, phones dh, who emails sister, then dh emails bil, then a phonecall then an email to other brother, then he sends that email to me and dh

It's a mess, I am not contacting bil again, I've only emailed him twice in 19 months. I don't want all this. It's stupid and stressful.. I'm going to ignore just as I had been happily doing. And dh can say no stop asking and leave of at that.

First post is me second is his email, all of it

I didn’t see previous thread about this so here’s my take for what it’s worth.

What does your husband think?

If he is happy to facilitate a relationship between his son and his brother then that would be fine with me.

It does sound like you’ve been quite harsh on your BIL to me, based on the email explanations.

So nothing is his fault, it's all everyone else's fault and he has an explanation excuse for everything you saw or heard about.

That's a fuck right off from me.

His email clearly demonstrates that he does not understand that his behaviour is unacceptable (I'm especially aghast at the dunking in the sea incident). This means it is likely to continue/ be repeated in future interactions, so YANBU to not want him to be in contact with DS.

I've asked to have these deleted for privacy and personal reasons, thanks

I didn't see the last thread but look, this is simple. He hit his wife, and he's been none too careful with your son. You should be able to ensure that your son doesn't see him - you and your DH are responsible for his care and that includes keeping him away from harmful people. Your DH should back you up in that, unless he disagrees with your assessment, in which case you need to discuss it and come to a decision together. It sounds like he does actually agree with your opinion on BIL, but he's a bit of a people pleaser - this might be quite a hard pattern for him to break out of if he's always been the peacemaker but it's his son he needs to be looking out for now, not his brother.
If it is a long-standing family dynamic, he and you might be interested in Susan Forward's books (Toxic Parents and Toxic In-laws).

His email is basically ‘ me me me me blah blah me me.’ Long, self justifying bollocks.

He hit his ex, he dunked your kid in cold water. That alone would be enough for me to say no you cannot see DS.

The rest of your family are adults and you cannot dictate their relationships with each other in any way at all.