I don't believe that women earn 75% less than men at a certain airline.

[Gromance02]

I just don't. Unless they are talking about completely different roles. Eg, pilots (generally men) compared to air stewards (generally women). I'm not defending the airline but I don't think they deserve this utterly misleading headline.

Obviously if a female pilot with exactly the same length of career with the same number of sabbatical/maternity/paternity leave as a man is on less than her male counterpart, that is wrong.

Men used to entirely prevent women from getting an education and from entering the vast majority of professions - some universities wouldn't allow women to get degrees until the mid twentieth century. The purpose of that was to ensure women were dependent on men, so that they couldn't earn their own money, ensuring that men had a ready supply of slaves to provide sex and children. That level of contempt and control doesn't just disappear in fifty years - it'll take a much longer time for women to be truly seen as equal in the working world - a world they were kept out of by men for centuries.

Not Ms then bingo?

How very illuminating.

I was a head of house once : not a housemistress.

But, as you know , we are talking about a job in which pay negotiation actually isn't the norm and in which plenty of women have applied for promotions and not secured them : this isn't just about people who haven't applied for them.

I will bow out of this one now because you are so determined to be right, no matter which articles are put in front of you.

And the most interesting summary of the summart

“Some of [the pay gap] undoubtedly does represent the preferences of women, either for particular job types or some flexibility, but there could be barriers to entry for women and these could be very subtle,” Ms. Blau said. “It could be because the very culture and male dominance of the occupation acts as a deterrent.”

So, women won't enter an occupation if they think there are too many men in it. Women's preferences account for some of the pay gap. There "could" be "subtle" problems.

One of the women cited said “The gender gap in pay would be considerably reduced and might vanish altogether if firms did not have an incentive to disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours,”

Does it not strike you as ridiculous that organisation should not reward individuals for their labour or particular hours?

So, to reduce a perceived gap, pay everyone the same no matter how hard or long they work. That isn't the world I want to live in!

@piggyWasPushed

"Not Ms then bingo?

How very illuminating."

No. Not really. When I was writing I did wonder why we don't have any "I'm Ms, actually" women working at the school. I suspect that it's because they would be knocking on my study door when people rolled their eyes at them.

In case it makes a difference, although I sign off on every new member of staff and do glance at their CV and internal notes, I only usually have input for Head of Year and above and am only involved in the interview process for Head of Key Stage or Head of Faculty and above.

"we are talking about a job in which pay negotiation actually isn't the norm"

Exactly. A pretty fair career.

"in which plenty of women have applied for promotions and not secured them"

and plenty of men.

Any hint of one of those articles which suggests men are more likely to get a promotion despite plenty of women applying?

I don't know if you're being serious bingo? You don't seem to understand what's being said.

So, to reduce a perceived gap, pay everyone the same no matter how hard or long they work

There is a gap.
In general, there are a lot more women doing jobs that don't pay much and a lot more men doing jobs that do pay a lot. That's just one factor.

And within an organisation at the same level - especially with negotiated pay, women tend to not do as well with the negotiations.

There are a whole range of complex factors. And some cultural shifts that need to take place.

I think bingo is a pisstaker. Making unevidenced sweeping statements while demanding evidence for other people’s posts (dismissed as biased, irrelevant of course) and the only link they’ve provided is to a book about rocks.

Then talks about being rewarded for working long hours while apparently pissing their own work time away on MN.

bingo why do you post an article on calcium carbonate previously as your conclusive evidence?

I would tell you the gender make up of the SLT at my school but I can't be bothered to engage with someone who works in (leads!) a school where it is OK that people roll their eyes at someone who calls themselves Ms. and where if they ended up in your study it would all be a joke.

Is bingo serious though? Why would someone want to seem that stupid?

Course they’re not serious. Not convinced they’re even a woman, tbh.

why do you post an article on calcium carbonate previously as your conclusive evidence

That was strange.

I do know how what appears to be different averages can disappear under closer scrutiny (Simpson's Paradox demonstrates that) - but there are still issues that need addressing.

At the moment I am applying for a new job with a salary point scale - open to negotiation. Part of me would just be grateful for the job but I do need the higher end of the scale - and I am not good at selling myself.

No idea... the language being used is deliberately archaic and exclusive : mistress, study, etc. My DH works in a private school where none of that language is used (an there are plenty of Ms teachers!) but I do know that people like bingo do indeed exist. So pleased that she has succeeded that she can't see herself as an exception that proves a rule. ffs even Theresa May says there is a problem and she is a highly successful woman by anyone's measure. And Karen Brady eventually understood it all on C5 last night.

@noblegiraffe

I thought we were posting irrelevant links. I just wanted to join in.

"pissing their own work time away on MN."

Stuck in traffic but thanks for the concern.

@Piggywaspushed

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said there aren't any "It's Ms, actually" staff.

Poor bingo has been stuck in traffic all afternoon.

Can you evidence your assertions that men and women are promoted and paid equally and fairly when there’s a disproportionate amount of men in leadership positions and women in leadership positions are paid less than the men?

"the language being used is deliberately archaic and exclusive : mistress, study, etc"

Why did you end at etc? There are no more examples, are there?

What's exclusive about the language? I'd also say that I inherited the language; it is an old school.

"even Theresa May says there is a problem"

Yes, and she'd always say what she thought, not what some potential voters wanted to hear.

You can change the language.

I like tradition.

Yes. Noted.

bingo I hope you aren't driving and using a phone!

I'm horrified that anyone running a school would have such a low education level on unconscious bias and societal issues that lead women to ask for less money than men at interview.

I'm not surprised though. We have to do EDI related training yearly, but as a teacher you can continue blindly pushing male and female stereotypes on your students with no interventions at all.

The simply solution to the pay issue is to make the pay for the role fixed and known at the outset. Then the men are paid the same as the women.

HTH

@Morphene

"I hope you aren't driving and using a phone!"

I have a driver. I highly recommend it!

"I'm horrified that anyone running a school would have such a low education level on unconscious bias and societal issues that lead women to ask for less money than men at interview."

Don't be horrified. Unconscious bias training isn't something I'm convinced exists outside of MN. I've also never heard the word "intervention" used seriously in real life.

"The simply solution to the pay issue is to make the pay for the role fixed and known at the outset. Then the men are paid the same as the women."

But we balance wanting to pay each employee as little as possible (because we'd be stupid not to) alongside paying high salaries to attract the best staff. We have £x to spend per year and if we pay more to have one member of staff we balance it with a cheaper person in another department. If we can't do that then money is cut elsewhere. I don't have the money worries that many heads do but I also don't have a bottomless pot.

Alongside basic pay, we offer housing allowance, private health insurance, massively reduced school fees and a few other perks. A single teacher is cheaper than an employee with a family. It isn't as simple as you like to imagine. By offering a range, we can assess the applicants and their relative worth.

Besides which, why should the pay be fixed?

If the money's there then we'll spend it on the best candidate. Complaining that allowing negotiations is unfair on people who are worse at negotiating is a stupid argument. If the best candidate is also cheaper then we would be falling over ourselves to hire them (or her, as you suggest). I'm pretty smart; do you think I would ignore a better and cheaper member of staff because they're a woman?

@noblegiraffe

"Can you evidence your assertions"

Are you American?

I assume you're confused as I think you're after proof of my assertions but 'evidence' in the way you used it means 'make clear'.

It doesn't seem worth posting a link explaining teacher's pay scales but that is the explanation of how progression is rewarded financially in the UK. I have no idea about the States.

and women in leadership positions are paid less than the men?"

but that is the explanation of how progression is rewarded financially in the UK

Oh dear. You don’t know that it’s no longer automatic. I guess working in the private sector means you really aren’t in a position to comment on education in general.

" I guess working in the private sector means you really aren’t in a position to comment on education in general."

Education in general? Of course I bloody can. I am and I do and people pay me to hear what I have to say.

The finances of state schools. No. Not my area of expertise.

I'm still not sure what you want me to make clear for you.

The finances of state schools. No. Not my area of expertise.

And yet you tried to school me on payscales? And think you know about the distribution of pay and promotion opportunities

Maybe stick to what you do know: sorting out disputes about bananas.

First 'evidence' as a verb and now school'.

I've explained I know very little about education in the US.

Or the UK.