I don't believe that women earn 75% less than men at a certain airline.

[Gromance02]

I just don't. Unless they are talking about completely different roles. Eg, pilots (generally men) compared to air stewards (generally women). I'm not defending the airline but I don't think they deserve this utterly misleading headline.

Obviously if a female pilot with exactly the same length of career with the same number of sabbatical/maternity/paternity leave as a man is on less than her male counterpart, that is wrong.

As a statistician, it makes me sad that the level of maths education in this country is so poor that so many people can't understand these statistics. There are caveats, as with all statistics to a bigger or lesser extent. That doesn't make them useless.

My experience of working in a STEM area is that yes it is better paid but awful for rubbish for balancing with family life. I was 30 years old before I was fully qualified. All those years studying looking like they will be wasted. Among people I know, doctors both medical and non - medical in the same position. I would love keep using my skills. But I don't want my kids not seeing a parent all week for very limited financial gain for the family. Part time was horribly stressful in practice. So it makes sense for me to be home but it makes me annoyed that society is getting no use from all that training. Forcing companies to explore this issue is a good thing.

Air hostess=waitress in the sky. Pilot=years of training and having the lives of 300+ people as your responsibility. Yup....no difference whatsoever!

So it makes sense for me to be home but it makes me annoyed that society is getting no use from all that training. Forcing companies to explore this issue is a good thing

This.

Return to work programmes
Valuing part time employees as much as full time ones - and recognising the skills and experience they have.

What would you have liked your company to do?

Struggling to see where morphene said there was no difference in the jobs

The word used was demanding...

2 key things would have kept me working.

Number 1) The most important. My husband, who is 5 years older and much much more senior than me in the same job, at the same employers, having been able to take paternity leave/flexible/part time without redundancy/massive career worries. Having been there, those concerns are totally reasonable.

2. An enviroment where it wasn't just men discussing football/poker/bragging about how much they spent on their wives. This isn't everywhere but this attitude was about enough.

eddie this is about the gender paygap , not about high pay. I think sciences are 5th worst on the gender pay gap list.

piggywaspushed I appreciate this is about the gender pay gap but as a number of people have speculated on this thread there is a problem with 'women's roles' traditionally being undervalued which contributes to the gap when you are comparing different roles as opposed to looking at whether men and women are paid the same for the same role. One solution that was mentioned was girls being directed to STEM subjects and on forums targeted at students you often see claims that STEM subjects are the only ones worthwhile from a pay perspective. However, as you point out and other posters testify STEM actually has a high pay gap.

So my point was merely that encouraging STEM subjects for girls is not the way to ensure girls go into traditionally higher paid jobs and close the pay gap that way (with the added note that humanities don't have to lead to low paid jobs). However, it should be encouraged because some talented girls are put off STEM subjects that they would excel in.

Probably didn't explain my thoughts very well late last night!

bingoLounge of course I'm giving opinions! How could anyone know for a fact what would happen if.....
But we can see the way it all just happens to have gone and form an opinion based on that.
I do think it's very interesting how we see soft skills as barely being skills, as being just how someone "is" in a way we don't seem to with technical skills. If you ever meet a doctor without the soft skills you realise that they do need to be taught yet I can imagine that many of them would find this patronising ( wonder why?!) I've met a doctor of many years standing with appalling bedside manner. Why hasn't that been tackled? Or maybe it has and he just couldn't learn, in the way some of you think cabin crew couldn't possibly learn to be a pilot.

bingo given that males only make up 15% of the primary teaching workforce yet 28% of its heads, one possible explanation for female primary class teachers being paid slightly more than males is because as soon as male primary teachers get a bit of experience and work their way up the pay scale, they are disproportionately hoovered into management and a different pay category while their female counterparts stay in the classroom.

You could argue that those male primary teachers become fathers and want more money for the family - as their partners want to go part time - so go for management roles whilst their partners stay in the classroom and juggle the role of a teacher with looking after the children.

It would be good to see a male primary teacher deciding to prioritise family over work.

But if the family needs more money, you can see why they would go for the better paid job.

@bingoLounge

You keep saying that headmistresses are paid less than headmasters. You're yet to actually back it up though.Going to?

Probably not what youre looking for but I recently sat on an interview for a new headteacher. We asked each applicant what salary they were looking for. They all had similar experience and qualifications so it genuinely was going to be a toss of the coin sort of choice. The female applicants all stated that they were prepared to do the job for considerably less by thousands of £ than the male applicants. They recruited a male applicant who said he wouldn't get out of bed for less than £75,000pa. The next closest figure from a female was £68,000pa.

I feel women consider the bigger picture, in my case the school budgets are tight, they might need to save money so the female applicants wanted the interview panel to see them as good value for money and happy to help moral by not taking a huge salary. By paying them less theres less pressure on them and you're more likely to keep someone long term if theyre good value for money. The men don't necessarily think that way and maybe consider that if you want them to work for you then you cough up big salaries to keep them or they will go elsewhere.

whilst their partners stay in the classroom and juggle the role of a teacher with looking after the children.

Not sure you know much about teaching.
And I’m sure I’m not the only one who has come across a male primary teacher who is gushed about because he’s male. Such a good role-model etc etc.

Yes I did bingo : that's why I pointed out your error

Gosh reniette, that thoroughly smakcekd my gob! Did he really say he 'wouldn't get out of bed' or are you paraphrasing?

so much so that all typing ability has eluded me !

On the BBC news website they did a median calculation which was a good indication of the pay gap. Rather than an average. Was still quite a large difference!
It's really angers me. When I first started training in my job I started the same day as another guy. We done the same job and both passed our exams at the same time. I found out his pay rises were massively bigger than mine! Made me so so angry.
I work in finance and out of the industries on average ours has the biggest pay gap difference.

psreinette is that question even ethical??

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

I don't think she said there was no difference. She did say "is it harder to fly the plane? I seriously doubt it." meaning that air hostess and pilot are of equal difficulty or that air hostessing is the more difficult.

Do you agree with that?

@onlyconnect

I said that you're making your opinions sound like fact. Surely you know the difference between the two.

I've met a doctor of many years standing with appalling bedside manner. Why hasn't that been tackled?

As you said, maybe it has been but he couldn't learn. However, when thinking about important skills in being a Dr, bedside manner is not at the top of my list. It's a good thing but saving lives with knowledge is more important.

I do think it's very interesting how we see soft skills as barely being skills, as being just how someone "is" in a way we don't seem to with technical skills.

Surely it's very basic supply and demand. I was a bar girl whilst at Uni. I had an hours training and could do the job as could most people. There are very few people trained to do my job now and I'm paid much more.

If we took 1,000 people, maybe half of them could be good barstaff. Maybe only 5% would be good engineers though. One is common sense and a smile and a bit of enthusiasm. The other is much, much more demanding.

Do you not think 'soft skills' are more common and therefore worth less?

@ReinettePompadour

I'm not sure what your story proves or even suggests though. The only argument I can imagine someone making using your anecdote is the boring one about the patriarchal conspiracy socialising women to not ask for more money.

All it suggests to me is that the pay gap is women's fault. If you ask for less money or don't ask for more (as is also proven to happen) don't bloody complain that there's a gap. It's like something I sorted out today between two Year 2s.

"Miss, Peter ate my banana"

"Why did you do that Paul?"

"Because Peter said I could."

"True, Paul?"

"Yes."

@Peachyfizz

Maybe he done his job betterer.

in a straw poll of people in my place of work, every single person would find it harder to be cabin crew than to be a pilot.

Admittedly my place of work is a science department in a university, and we are not, on average, endowed with people skills....while we are very good with machinery and computers.

So if there are people who would find one harder than the other, and others who would find the other harder than the first one...then why should one job be paid up to 7-10 times the hourly rate of the other?

I pretty sure cabin crew have to do regular training updates as well...presumably including all the crucial safety stuff THEY (and not the pilots) are responsible for and first aid etc.

You forgot to mention @morphene that they don't just let you be a pilot because you say you can or because you'd rather do it than serve tea at 40,000'.

"So if there are people who would find one harder than the other, and others who would find the other harder than the first one...then why should one job be paid up to 7-10 times the hourly rate of the other?"

Because you asked a small number of people in a very specific job who said they would find one harder than the other. That isn't the same as having the ability to do it.

I don't for a second believe that assessing aptitude (no opinion) of a diverse percentage would show equal results for the two roles. Using your 7-10x figure, it seems about right for what I'd expect i.e. 10x fewer people are capable of being pilots than air hostesses.

"I pretty sure cabin crew have to do regular training updates as well."

Very little.

"presumably including all the crucial safety stuff THEY (and not the pilots) are responsible for and first aid etc."

Again, very little and the pilot is responsible for everything that happens on their plane. I have much more first aid training than my SiL - I work in a school but have no special medical responsibilities.

[source, BiL is a long-haul commercial pilot, SiL is an ex air-hostess]

I wonder what percentage of the population could learn to fly a 747 then?

My guess would be a substantial fraction....

Pilots appear to report the flying of large standard aircraft as simply down to training. If you've internalised the protocols then its easier than riding a bike, apparently....

It doesn't sound like its substantially harder than learning to drive any other mostly automated vehicle.

and of course its getting easier and easier as computers take over more and more of the higher level processing.

the same thing is happening with kit like electron microscopes and atomic force microscopes...

It used to take years of experience to get decent data from either...and now you can buy one that does a better job without any interference from the user.

All it suggests to me is that the pay gap is women's fault.

I guess you haven’t read the research that says otherwise then. Women are damned if they ask for a pay rise and damned if they don’t.

"Pilots appear to report the flying of large standard aircraft as simply down to training."

Of course. The question is the 'trainability' of people. The same could be said of most things.

"It doesn't sound like its substantially harder than learning to drive any other mostly automated vehicle."

Yes. The cockpit looks like my Merc (which keeps me within a lane, active cruise control and auto emergency breaking - pretty close to automated)

You really are quite amusing. I love your idea that piloting an aircraft is no more difficult than being an air hostess and that its society which makes pilots paid more than a trolly dolly.

Good luck to all of your department in their career change.

"I guess you haven’t read the research that says otherwise then."

True.

Thanks for the fascinating links you posted though.