AIBU to tell you that Girlguiding has got this wrong? Let's support them to get it right

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Some of you will have seen my previous threads here and in FWR about Girlguiding's transgender policy. I, and many other Leaders (and parents), feel that they've got this one wrong.

Since we highlighted the issue of mixed accommodation without parental consent, and the suggestion that gender nonconforming girls get 'managed out', Girlguiding has been quietly updating the policy on the website, to try and accommodate parental concern that they didn't anticipate. This still doesn't address the underlying issues and there was no announcement of the changes; I only discovered them by comparing cached pages with the live webpage.

Fair Play For Women has put together an article comprehensively setting out the issues in black and white, asking for them to be addressed. They worked on this not just with me, but a number of other concerned Leaders and parents.

You can read a one page fact sheet that summarises our concerns here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

If you'd like to see the full article, which discusses our concerns in detail and is fully referenced, you can do that here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

If you share our concerns and would like to support this initiative, there is a (public) Facebook group where parents and Leaders can talk about it and add their voice. If we don't speak, no one will hear us:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/902343833223644

Policies which refuse to address the safeguarding of children need to be urgently questioned and clarified. At the moment, many organisations are being given bad advice, getting ahead of the law and misinterpreting the current legislation. Because, yet again, they are only getting one side of the story.

We want all our children to benefit from Girlguiding, transgender or otherwise.

The policies need to reflect that everyone should be taken into account, without one group being prioritised to the detriment of another.

And finally, thank you to Fair Play For Women and the leaders and parents who contacted me after reading the other threads. I would never have been able to do this alone

I think potential weakness in DBS checking for self identified 'women' is just one weak link in a whole chain of weak links that make up the GGA policy. Hats off to FPFW and Agnes for putting together such a comprehensive document, I can't stop rereading it as I can't quite believe what I'm reading.

It's almost like if you were teaching a lecture on 'cognitive dissonance' and 'logical inconsistencies' you'd use the GGA policy as your case study.

Girlscout thanks that’s really informative.

Transgender applicants are protected in legislation and are not obliged to include details indicating a previous gender in their application form.

The DBS has a process in place which allows any details indicating a previous gender to be checked without being disclosed on the completed certificate

- so they won't look unless you tell them?? What could possibly go wrong!

Suited

Yes and as the FPFW article said, it's not about saying trans people are predators, just that self ID is a really bad idea, as there's no way of checking a subjective internal feeling of 'feeling like a woman' (or 'girl').

More that it's open to abuse by nefarious men who would use self ID as a shield. DBS checking only weeds out people who've already been caught before anyway.

So it's belt and braces, checking but also SAFEGUARDING.

But even the best DBS checking in the world is no good without safeguarding policies and procedures. Surely the key thing is that GGA policy of allowing self identified 'girls' and 'women' in with the females, as they are segregating on gender ID and not sex, presents OPPORTUNITY.

Plus just from the angle of privacy and dignity, it's insulting.

I'm really interested also to see how they are going to react to the fact they are probably in breach of the law for discriminating against TIFs and boys who are not transgender (as this whole thing voids their single sex exemption).

I think we need more information on the DBS process. As others have said, they must have ways and means of checking, which won't necessarily be public. I'll see if I can investigate further.

That issue aside, the GG trans policy is still an utter mess. Girls are having gender stereotypes reinforced, their boundaries are being walked all over, parents are unable to give informed consent. These are the issues we should focus on - we can lobby GG on this basis but the DBS process is out of their control.

How is this going to be acceptable to more conservative cultures, and keep Guiding inclusive of ethnic minorities - surely their girls will also effectively be "managed out" of Guides?

I asked GG about this in my first letter. Their reply:

Girlguiding is an inclusive organisation and is committed to being open and providing equality of opportunity for all girls and young women. We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies. Decisions are based on giving any girl who wishes to attend guiding the option to be part of our wonderful charity. We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, we accept this as their choice. Excluding groups of girls gives no one any choice and is not what Girlguiding stands for. We are for all girls, from all walks of life and we will continue to open our doors to anyone based on that principle.

So a big FU to girls who's families won't let them join due to an ill thought out policy, no matter how much those girls want to join us.

Agnes

Agreed, to me the whole thing reads like they've had external consultants come in and have just cut and paste some new policy bits in with the old. Their policy plainly contradicts itself in places.

It really irked me to see how they are muddling up even the word 'female' for heaven's sake!

I find their website hard to navigate, but I stumbled on this fact sheet for leaders about talking to girls about gender identity, think it was seniors, and it said something like 'girls who like Rugby are NOT NECESSARILY transgender' - I mean WTAF is that? I'll try to find it again and post it here. It makes no sense.

It just seems to me GGA have been scared or bamboozled into believing they HAVE to make these changes and as you and FPFW have pointed out, they don't. Hopefully, if we make a big enough noise, and they can actually hear that we are not being 'hateful' we just want to thrash this out, they'll look at it again. I think you are really brave sticking your neck out publicly on this, it's not easy.

The issue here is also one of the general trust in responsible adults. All adults having regular contact with children have to have an enhanced DBS to protect children from pedophiles. In doing this we are always asking innocent people to undergo checks they probably don’t red to undergo to prevent unsavoury types getting through. People have no problem with this. You don’t see teachers up in arms about being DBS checked.

What the TRANS movement are asking for is a loophole in the DBS system which would make it utterly pointless. Because the point is not that trans people are predatory. Rather that predators, under self id will be given a loophole to side step criminal records checking and access to protected single sex spaces.

What the TRANS movement are asking for is a loophole in the DBS system which would make it utterly pointless. Because the point is not that trans people are predatory. Rather that predators, under self id will be given a loophole to side step criminal records checking and access to protected single sex spaces

You kinda gotta wonder who's running that particular show ...

We get it.

What the TRANS movement are asking for is a loophole in the DBS system which would make it utterly pointless

I thought from Girlscout’s link on p1 that trans people just rang up and asked for the previous names to be left off the actual certificate, so your employer could not see that you were previously known as Doris. Not that you could ask for all the crimes to be left off too, as that would indeed made DBS checks a pretty pointless exercise.

I found the factsheet, it's called Let’s Talk About Gender and Gender
Identity - Advice for Leaders
www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

Three extracts:

1. Gender stereotypes Gender stereotypes are when certain characteristics, such as preferring a colour or an activity, are applied to an entire gender. For example, ‘all girls like pink’ is a very common stereotype. Stereotypes like this can often be limiting to young people. They can split the population into male and female and can make people feel uncomfortable about enjoying things that are not perceived as being ‘normal’ for their gender. This can influence choices of toys, colours, hobbies, subjects studied and even career paths. It is important, when discussing gender with girls and young women in your unit, that you feel able to examine these stereotypes and discuss them. Use the age-specific activity sheets that accompany these Leaders’ notes to help you investigate gender stereotypes and further explore these limitations.

Please note: if a child is enjoying activities or expressing themselves in a way that is stereotypically associated with a gender different to their assigned gender, for example a girl liking rugby, this does
not necessarily mean that they are identifying as a different gender or that they are trans.

Girlguiding’s girl-led programme gives girls and young women the opportunity to push against or challenge gender boundaries and stereotypes. This enables them to gain skills and experience that
will help them to achieve their personal aims and goals in life without the limitations of gender.

2. Membership of Girlguiding Membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity. This is understood in terms of the way a person self-identifies their gender identity – a person’s inner sense of self. If a young person identifies as female then they are able to join any of our youth sections appropriate to their age.

We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to another gender identity, they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. It may be that they would be better
supported in an organisation that is available to all genders._ However, flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion, in conversation with the parents, can be used to determine how long the child stays
within the unit.

If an adult self-identifies as female they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding and may, if they wish, make their Promise.
If an adult self-identifies as not being female then they are able to take volunteer roles that do not require them to complete a Leadership Qualification or to make their Promise. This includes the role of Unit Helper and support roles such as Adviser or Coordinator.

3. What should I do if a young member tells me they do not identify as a girl? .... at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders

On another document they say:
Sex
This is assigned at birth based on the physical sex characteristics you’re born with and develop, including genitalia, body shape, voice pitch, body hair, hormones, chromosomes etc.

Gender
Where a person sits on the spectrum between male and female; defined by social, cultural and internal factors.

Sexual orientation
A person’s emotional, romantic and/or sexual attraction to others.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_tss.pdf
This last being the same document with activities for seniors to define what a girl is, including:

Discuss these questions.

How did they draw their outline? Is she wearing a dress or a skirt? Does she have long hair? Why?

Would she still be a girl if she had short hair or wore trousers?

What words were used most often when defining being a girl? Why was this?

Were all the words positive? What negative words were used?

How does this make them feel?

Are there words that are more traditionally masculine that they would identify with, such as

‘strong’ and ‘brave’? Does this stop them being a girl?

I mean, what the flippin' heck is that???? I feel gaslighted just reading it!

PS sorry if emphasis doesn't work, I'm trying to following the key below but not sure if it worked.

The really sad thing is that the girls who could derive the most benefit from girl guides (those that are not gender conforming, those from cultures with sex-based restrictions) are the ones who are being lost with the introduction of this policy. GGUK, despite acknowledging the world-wide implications of being born in a female body, will no longer be able to help and support those self-same girls to enable them to critically consider their own lives and how they can impact their own futures (and make the world a better place blah blah). Instead, the girl guides, in accepting male bodied people as members, have set up a weird situation whereby they are enshrining the same damaging gender stereotypes in male bodied people, and managing out female bodied people who are vulnerable due to the very fact of their female bodies.

I believe ALL children should have the freedom to explore their own identities and become comfortable with their own choices. But I don't believe that male bodied children should have the right to explore the limits of their own identity in a sex-segregated space, where that sex-segregated space provides a safe environment that would be impacted by their presence, to the extent that some female bodied children would be excluded.

For me, the gender stereotyping that is inherent in the trans ideology is incompatible with freeing girls from stereotypes. The safeguarding issues are real and obvious (my unit are teens) but for me this is a clash of ideologies. I am a leader because I believe in empowering girls and young women to allow them to become whoever they want to be. I am not a leader because I want to shore up male bodied people's rights to access female safe space, and in doing so, reduce my ability to empower females.

Thanks so much for doing this. My DD wants to join Brownies and I feel like I must try to persuade her otherwise.

I also feel this is a good place to leave the link to the self ID petition
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Girlscout - right? On the one hand, they want leaders to question any stereotypes that the girls come with, dispelling gender myths about girls liking pink and boys being brave (which at the logical conclusion, reduces sex to biological fact alone, and frees girls from any gender-based restrictions), but on the other hand, they want leaders to be able to manage this self same discussion while acknowledging one of their members is a boy who is only in the unit because he displays gender stereotypes associated with being a girl. So if he 'is' a girl according to GGUK, because stereotypes, that renders the entire conversation null and void. His very presence means that our words cannot be trusted, and that gender stereotypes are literally everything. They want leaders to lie.
Girl, you can be anything! Even a boy! It's so stupid, it makes my blood boil.

TerfyOwl

It's bonkers, I do think it's laudable that GGA cares about trans kids, but perhaps they should stick to their area of expertise, females.

That way they could offer a safe space for gender confused girls to work it all out, and given that most of them naturally resolve their issues through puberty, and happily end up lesbian women, surely that would be a good thing?

They could really help a lot of gender confused girls to work their way through all this confusion. All the (heartbreaking) desistance stories I've read, feature internalised misogyny, homophobia and the relentless battering of stereotypes for the mistaken 'trans self diagnosis' in the first place. Perhaps being around supportive peers who love and know them and can say 'not liking make up doesn't mean you are a boy, silly!' would be a relief?

I can't see how they are going to fix it, without excluding males - that would make a lot more sense. They can't legally excluded females who identify as trans AND use their single sex exemption anyway.

Plus, girls from really conservative backgrounds would benefit from being around GNC girls, it'd show them that all that makes you a girl is your biology, and after that there's a whole world of choices out there.

I think they are going to come unstuck on the religious angle as religion and belief is a protected characteristic in Equality Law, and those emails in the long FPFW article show that GGA have already said 'those girls are free not to join' which is really really scandalous.

The DBS check will come back unable to be cleared if the relevant information is not supplied.

I'm not someone for Guides or single-sex activities, but this is so unbelievably wrong-headed it is untrue.

Regarding DBS checks, if you have to provide something like your NI number, that would link to all identities. I've only ever required a DBS for work once, around a decade ago so it was probably a CRB back then, but I don't remember being asked for my maiden name.

What outrages me the most is that Girlguiding is so ignorant about Equality law. They claim they have no right to exclude trans - this is wrong. They claim they can't tell parents - this is wrong.

You can see by the way their website muddles up sex and gender that they have just 'bolted on' a trans policy and had all their advice from a trans organisation like Gendered Intelligence. They have done no due diligence here whatsoever. They should be ashamed. But no they are digging in their heels.

It’s the problem that under the Equalities Act it is against the law to ask someone if they have a GRC or to ask for details of their previous gender (dead name) as being trans is protected? I thought that was the crux of the issue. Or at least, that is what trans activists are telling us. That we cannot ask them if they have a GRC.

The whole thing feels like badly thought out smoke and mirrors and really making safety checks rather pointless.

CRB and DBS checks both require maiden names are divulged.

Also, isn’t enhanced DBS done by your local force? I had to re-do mine when I moved to a new school in a new county.

So would new name, new gender, new county equal untraceable.

CRB and DBS checks both require maiden names are divulged.
Even if you don't have one! I use Ms so had to fill in my former name even though I don't have one.

NannyOgg it goes with the role not the locality.