To think loot boxes are gambling?

[Itsthatotherone]

My friend has just discovered her son (18) has run up a massive bill opening packs in FIFA on his Xbox. His wages, savings and a lot of money from his grandparents have all gone on these packs.

He had a problem with fruit machines when he was a teenager which they sought treatment for and he hasn’t gambled since. He says he didn’t think this was technically gambling.

The basic premise of loot boxes is that that you pay in game for a “pack” or “box” and hope that when you open it you get a rare or high value player or item for the game.

It seems from googling that lots of people have a problem becoming addicted to beating the odds and getting a high value prize. Lots of streamers have millions of kids tuning in to watch them open packs in Fifa.

I think this is quite clearly gambling in that you’re paying to roll a dice and hopefully end up with something of a higher value than you paid. Lots of these loots/players can be transferred outside of the game and sold for real cash.

AIBU to think this IS gambling and wonder why nothing has been done about it yet given the main market for these games are teenagers?

Unfortunately, it's not legally gambling to a loophole regarding virtual currency. You buy the currency with real world money, and then use that currency to open lootboxes containing the random prizes, and that extra step of obfuscation lets companies get away with it. The ESA, a large lobbying group representing a number of video companies is also rather powerful, though there is certainly a growing backlash by both consumers and politicians against lootboxes.

Yes you’re right it absolutely is gambling and I expect the loophole will close.

I see your point that there is a degree of gambling to it, but to be honest it’s more the “pay to play” concept that is the issue here. The more you are prepared to spend on that game (and many similar ones) the better your team is.

It’s not unlike the iPhone games where we read about kids racking up bills on angrybirds because the parents haven’t put a password protection on it.

The issue is he’s 18 and if he wants to do that with his money there’s not a lot they can do. He’s an idiot of course and it’s perfectly possible to enjoy those games and have a perfectly fulfilling experience without spending a penny.

I’m afraid I think is a problem with him rather than the games. It was fruit machines before and if it wasn’t FIFA it would be something else. He’s 18 now and needs to learn financial responsibility.

Since an 18 year old can quite legally gamble both online and over the counter st a bookmaker’s, I’m not clear what he would gain from this being regulated.

I am increasingly upset by the normalisation of gambling, and I also find almost all video games morally and aesthetically ugly; the confluence of the two is just grim. But I think adults should in general be left to make their own mistakes unless there is overwhelming public interest in control. I think that threshold is crossed by fobts in shops; i’d take done convincing in the situation you describe, even though personally I think it’s vile.

I’ve spent a while googling tonight and can’t believe something hasn’t been done about this.

Yes he is 18 and he defiantly needs to sort himself out. I’m more concerned with the kids who are becoming addicted to the “reward” of opening a pack/loot box. There are plenty of stories online of kids literally addicted to the rush of possibly getting the best player or best item. It’s exactly the same as playing blackjack and hoping 21 will come out and then going again when it doesn’t. Given that many of these items can be traded online for real money then they do have a real world currency. Why aren’t the gambling commission doing anything about this (I realise EA is a huge company who’s interest lies in getting kids to pay for these packs)

But that virtual currency can be used online as real money. I read something about betting online using the virtual currency and then exchanging it for real world cash after the bet has closed. No age limits on these sites at all.

Why aren’t the gambling commission doing anything about this

The simple answer is that they can't. The gambling commission can only interpret what is gambling as per laws set by parliament, which unfortunately don't consider lootboxes gambling;
www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2017/Loot-boxes-within-video-games.aspx

There is an outside chance of litigation against lootboxes, but the best option is to vote with your wallet if you do buy these games/bring awareness to the issue if you don't. It worked with Star Wars: Battlefront 2, another EA game with exploitative lootboxes, and it'll hopefully work with FIFA and other games.

I’m more concerned with the kids who are becoming addicted to the “reward” of opening a pack/loot box.

I am, too.

Which is why, although I am as relaxed as you can imagine about children's access to technology and the Internet, my one bright line when my children were teenagers was "no games". I wouldn't buy them, I wouldn't enable their playing, I took some technical measures to ensure they couldn't be played. I cannot understand why MN is full of parents posturing about keeping their children away from social media which, while it has its downsides, is mostly benign and in some cases builds community and communication, while seemingly being entirely relaxed about their 12 year olds playing games which involve a range of virtual and - as in the instant case - potentially real world bad stuff for no apparent upside.

while it has its downsides, is mostly benign and in some cases builds community and communication
That can also be applied to video games. Let's not pretend that just because some game companies do bad things that the entire industry and medium is inherently evil, or that there's any convincing evidence that video games are objectively harmful.

It is being investigated in various countries as to whether its gambling- usa, belgium and sweden as far as i remember- probably more

I game but I don't approve of pay to win within games, though it isnt strictly gambling because there is always a return just maybe not the one people want.

I despair of how stupid people are to not password protect in app purchases on i pads.

You're not alone - gaming community is up in arms about this. Sadly these schemes work because you only have to hit a handful of 'whales' who are addicted and will spent thousands to make money on it. It's the gaming equivalent of calling people up and informing them that they've won a MASSIVE YACHT or asking them if they've recently been in an accident that wasn't their fault. They'll always work just inside (or plausibly deny that they're outside) the law, and they'll always do it so long as they can hit that 0.001% that are going to be taken.

It is exploiting the vulnerable. It is morally awful. And there's not much that can be done about it.

It is exploiting the vulnerable. It is morally awful. And there's not much that can be done about it.

Haven’t there been recent cases where consumer pressure forced a change? Some Star Wars game? The problem with being 50+ but reading Reddit and hacker news is that I learn a lot about games by unwilling osmosis.

I think the gambling commission have issued a few papers on this saying that in their opinion it is gambling but they don’t make the law they just enforce it.