To put bedtime into room 101?

[Falcon1]

I've seriously had it with bedtime. It's just a complete shit show. Two DDs (5 and 3). They share a room. Come bedtime all they want to do is play. They don't listen to me. The youngest won't go to bed unless the oldest will.The oldest has always had sleep issues - takes AGES to go to sleep even when very tired, won't go to sleep by herself, wants me to tickle her back, always comes into our bed in the night. She uses every excuse going each night to get out of going to sleep - not tired, scared, hungry, pillow not comfy etc etc. We've tried playing hard ball with her before (we had a sleep consultant when she was younger) but all she did was scream and scream if we didn't stay with her and that disturbs the youngest. Now the younger one has started playing up, refusing to go to sleep. If I'm stroking the back of one, the other gets cross and I find myself getting more and more worked up because I'm so lacking control of the situation. I'm just sick of it. I know it sounds dramatic, but it's ruining my life! I have no evening. DH doesn't get home until 9 so is no use. They are (usually) asleep by then but not until after about 2 hours of absolute hideousness. The last few nights I've just given up and left them to it. They're currently in and out of each other's bed having a great old time. But they'll be knackered tomorrow.

Feel like I'm failing as a parent.

Fucking bedtime.

Absolutely put it in there!!!

I’m past that stage now mine are older, but my twin boys were a nightmare at age 3ish. Highlights include throwing all their bedding down the stairs and throwing soft toys across the room whilst screaming manically. I remember phoning Twinline one night in floods of tears because of it all.
I did all the usual stuff with a set routine bath/story/bed.... Eventually they just grew out of messing around. They doesn’t help you at all, but just wanted to say a resounding YANBU!

That sounds absolutely shattering.

It does get easier. Age 3 was very much a low point for us. Onward and upwards, preferably with wine and chocolate!

Thanks for the words of comfort! It's just so frustrating. Nice to know it's not just me - my friends all seem to have perfect sleepers.

Thank god for wine!

This is probably not very popular mn parenting advice but I dont think bedtimes work, you cant tell a child they are tired when they are not and learning to go to sleep on demand is not a skill they need to learn for adulthood, knowing how to manage their own sleep and tiredness is though.
I would say keep trying at just leaving them to it, they will be knackered tomorrow but they will soon realise they need sleep.
My eldest was a nightmare trying to get to sleep, I think she found it funny like a game we all played before bed but we would all have screaming and fighting all night, me and DH were so stressed and also not getting any sleep so we stopped trying when she was about 4 and just pretended that we totally didnt care and that she could do whatever she liked. The first night she stayed up and watched tv untill she fell asleep on the sofa at about 3am morning, next day she was tired and only managed to stay up untill about 12, next day even earlier and within a few weeks she was wanting to go to bed at 8.
Now we have 3,4,8 and 10 year olds who dont have a bed time and it is so stress free and works so well. They dont see going to bed as a chore or something we make them do so they have no need to try and rebel against it, we still help get them to bed but when they ask to be put to bed, took them all up by 9 today and just checked and they were all asleep. Some nights they go up earlier and some later but they adjust by getting up earlier/later in the morning, having an afternoon nap and by going to bed earlier/later the next day.

I've found that school is helping to reduce DS's levels of resistance. He gives in a lot sooner than he once did... he now compensates in the mornings

Are they going to bed earlier than they need?
Do they get to burn off lots of energy?

Some children are just rubbish at it. DS needed lengthy sessions in the jumperoo to get tired enough as a baby. His pb was 2am before he crumbled on one occasion!

If you sit them down and the problem of how you can't reach both at once, could they help come up with a solution? Eg move their beds closer together, or give little one x minutes then the bigger one. They should be capable of understanding that you can't be in 2 places at once. It sounds like they are competing for your attention.

How can you reduce the number of tasks - joint stories perhaps, or eldest does x by herself while you do y with youngest. Could the tickling be substituted for with a lightly warmed wheat bag toy or something? My son adores their heaviness and finds it very calming, though they shouldn't be slept with warm because of the fire risk. Sometimes making a change can make you feel better just because you have a plan, and if you can use their ideas it's more likely they will respond to the new plan.

I'd let them settle themselves. Do a nice story and stuff - all the usual bedtime things - then just let them get on with it.

My dd never really had a bedtime. She used to get ready for bed at about 7 at that age and then go off to sleep when she wanted. Mainly, she was sound asleep by 7.30. Even when she was 10, she'd still be asleep by 8 at the latest. The only thing I did insist on was that she stayed in her room.

I agree with upside. Stress free nights here by not forcing a set bedtime.

We do not have a set bedtime for our son. He just goes when he is tired. It has worked well for us.
Can see from your post that the issue might be that you want some time to relax whilst without kids though. Could you consider just letting them play in their room until they finally crash? They might regulate themselves eventually.
Apologies if you have already tried this to no avail.

Just seen all your responses. Wow, I know it probably sounds stupid, but I honestly hadn't really considered just letting them get on with it as a planned approach. I like it! The only thing is, I've kind of fallen into this over the last week (because I've given up!), but they don't stay in their room. They just keep bugging me! I try to work in the evenings, so this is seriously irritating. Plus, it just delays the agony rather than deals with it, because even after playing herself out, the oldest will still insist on me staying with her until she falls asleep.

You're not being dramatic at all. After a long day the last thing you need is bedroom drama. It's awful for your energy levels, mental health and relationship.

Our DCs are 12 months apart in age and share a room. We went through a stage similar to you where our youngest was making excuses not to go to sleep and was "scared" of everything (most of the time not genuinely).

For a while we just let them get on with it as a PP has suggested as most of the time they played beautifully. This worked for a while and they'd play quietly for up to an hour and then go to sleep on thier own. We used to put them up a bit earlier so they were still getting a good sleep.

After a while though this stopped working and they'd play for longer and and not so quietly! They pushed boundaries and we found we were having to tell them off each night which wasn't nice for any of us.

In the end we decided to get a bit tougher and told them they could sit and talk/read books and play with teddies but they had to stay in bed. Each and every time they got out of bed we'd take it in turns to go up and put them back in, engaging as little as possible. After 3 months of doing this every single night (and nearly loosing our minds!) They now go straight to sleep 50% of the time and 50% of the time will go to sleep quietly on their own within 30 mins of going to bed which we think is a pretty good result!

I thought that going to school/preschool would sort our issues out as they'd be tired and go straight down but it didn't. They had a second wind at bedtime and came alive causing them to be exhausted through the day and misbehave. The only thing that worked was our new firm, calm and consistent approach. That became our mantra in those 3 months of trying to sort bedtime out!

Bedtime battle definitely deserve a place in room 101

Put the youngest to bed first, don't put the other one to bed until the first one's fallen asleep. DS2 goes to bed at 8, he's usually asleep by 8.20 because he's got nobody to talk to, then DD goes to bed.

PapaLazarous, that's really useful thank you. 3 months though - bloody hell! You must have so much will power! I think i'll try that approach though. Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I too was hoping that school/preschool would be the magic cure - no such luck!

I don't think putting the youngest to bed first will work. We did try this for a while, but soon she just totally rebelled and wasn't having any of it. Kept getting out of bed to see what her sister was doing. I gave up then.

Falcon - We've always put ours to bed at the same time. We are also lax when it comes to bed sharing. Sometimes they share, sometimes they don't and sometimes they end up in the same bed at some point during the night. As long as they are in bed and being quiet we leave them to it and they settle really quickly now. The benefit to that is that when my youngest was saying she was scared etc sharing with her sister settled her and luckily my eldest is a very heavy sleeper so it doesn't bother her

The 3 months was a hard slog, especially as my DH was not as optimistic as I was that it would work. I felt like I was constantly giving him encouragement to keep going with it as well which was mentally draining! When they get into bad habits it can take a while to get them back on track. We considered putting them in separate bedrooms at one point but I'm really glad we stuck with it. Good luck OP

Could you put their beds together, so it's like a double bed and they can read or play with toys (limit the ones they can play with) but they can't get off the bed - if they do, the next night the beds will be separate.

You might find your daughter who creeps out of bed will stay if she's got her sister with her.

I did the same as Upsideup and never had problems. They didn't fight bed and sleeping as there was nothing to fight. Nothing better than a 3 year old fetching their pyjamas and asking you to put them to bed.

I think 'bedtime' is a cultural thing. My own mother was very laid back, I was allowed to fall asleep on the sofa every night then carried to bed later. I did the same with my own two, and when they got too big for carrying I sleep-walked them. It helped that I didn't have a social life of any kind though

They've grown to adulthood without any major problems.

What does your bedtime involve? A bath? Reading a story? Low lighting?

No bedtime here, we go up at about 9-9.30, watch a bit of TV or read, they naturally fall asleep within about half an hour, usually less if we go up at half past, they wake up naturally at about 7am or I give them a shake, eyes instantly open and straight out of bed. 9 and 6 yo boys.

My friend thinks i'm insane and often chides me over it. She sends her two up at 7pm and tears her hair out as they faff about for, yes, about 2.5 hours before falling asleep

We don’t have bedtimes it gets to a certain time when I say he either goes to bed now or quits bugging me.

My 5yo is a great sleeper, always has been. My 3yo is an awful sleeper. She only just went into bottom bunk (just after her 3rd birthday) and before that was in a cot-bed pushed up against our bed.

We put the 5yo to bed about 8ish on a school night and let the 3yo fall asleep on sofa. Touch wood she can then be transferred to bed and doesn't actually waken until morning.

We tried bedtime with them both and it was horrible. They were wild, nosy and even the good sleeper took an hour + to nod off. We did this for a few nights and then resorted to current arrangement.

It seems unfair that 5yo has his sleep affected because his sister is wild and doesn't sleep? She is never near sleep until 9pm at the very earliest.

I also have a newborn so we do whatever we need to do for sleep at the moment.

DS2's usually so knackered, he doesn't want to get up. On nights when he can't sleep, he still stays in bed.

Would the oldest one go first?