To think that if you choose to be a Spy, that someone trying to bump you off, goes with the territory?

[ConfusedWomanInHerForties]

Just that really! Fed up of hearing about it now.

Do you seriously think that if Russian government wanted to kill a spy they will fly a nerve agent to UK and risk being cought etc? They could easily stage a heart attack or a car accident, etc etc.

Yes, because they've done it a few years ago. Litvinenko.

I am shocked that accusations are made by our Prime Minister when the police are still in the dark about how the attack happened. It makes us look like a bunch of hysterical idiots.

I think that the people who don't think they have enough evidence to accuse Russia look like a bunch of idiots.

Unless we can say categorically what, where, how, who, we should button it until we do.

And what if the people who commit this atrocities are capable of doing their job and covering their tracks. Do we continue to say that there is not enough evidence as the list of people who just happen to be considered traitors by Russia continues to grow and innocent people are killed on British soil in the process?

Can't you see there is a wider issue about public safety in this country? No government can stand by whilst their citizens are threatened - it is the first and most basic duty of government to ensure the safety & security of the population.

There was an interesting discussion on "Newsnight" last night in which someone said Putin is testing UK's growing isolation from our allies ie leaving Europe/unstable power in US

I could perhaps see why a spy might be killed while actually spying at the time. But this is a whole different scale of wrong. This man has been living peacefully in the UK for years. He was part of an agreed exchange of spies between two states.

I believe Putin wants to show that he can act with impunity, whatever he does. He wants to shore up his power at home and abroad. I don’t believe for a moment that he wanted this death to be secret. It would be so easy to kill someone and make it look like an accident.

Unfortunately it appears that he’s right. We are pretty impotent to act against him. Expelling his diplomats is a laughably limp response to what is in effect state-sponsored murder. But no one wants a war with Russia, and he knows it. So our hands are largely tied.

I’m amazed you think it’s not an important issue in world politics OP.

All these cases of other suspect Russian executions being reopened, too, too many not ordinary deaths for comfort.

Someone pointed out that Russia's economy = Australia's in spite of having 6x the population of Oz. The mortality rate for Russian adults is very high, too, lot of unhealthy unhappy adults. Russian influence & power is being exaggerated which suits their domestic narrative fine, too. They want to be perceived as superpower still.

I don't care if Russia bumps off all its former now defected spies. There's something very wrong IMO about betraying your own country.

I wouldn't care either if all our spies turned traitor got the same treatment. Sorry I just don't.

However I do care that this was done with a nerve agent in a public place that affects the general population, and the man's daughter, and a police officer etc. They could've taken him out in many other ways. This is a deliberate effort to draw attention.

I do also think that we should wait and prove it was Russia first! Corbyn is right there. We should be treading far more carefully.

Notapushymum1 That's exactly what they did with Litvinenko - flew over some plutonium. It was all over Lygovoy's aeroplane seat on the plane back to Moscow - the trail literally went all the way to the Kremlin!

I do also think that we should wait and prove it was Russia first! Corbyn is right there. We should be treading far more carefully.

What would you consider "proof" though. Do you think it likely that it will ever be obtained considering whoever did this would know what they are doing and be able to cover their tracks.

"prove it was Russia"

"Prove" implies a court of law. A public trial would reveal to Russians how their chemical was detected & thus inform the spies what not to use or do in next attack. Might reveal more about who gave what information about NoviChok and then make others vulnerable. Would take months or years to arrive at a verdict, whereas the risk is seeming very real NOW.

May gave Russians almost 48 hours to come up with an explanation. They sneered in response.

I heard on a political podcast that pretty much everybody that was exposed to that substance in that restaurant will die within the next five years. This was from an expert on chemical attacks.

That is horrifying! (Do you have a link, by any chance?)

There's something very wrong IMO about betraying your own country

But it's not that simple is it feral? What about people who do not subscribe to the ideals & beliefs of the country in which they were born? eg A German in 1940 who chose to spy for Britain would surely have been considered a hero?

I guess we'll know in five years, but I don't believe it for a moment.

If everyone was gonna be dead in 5 years, the deaths would be stacked towards happening earlier rather than later, so we would know within 1 yr if there was an excess death rate among the people in that restaurant. that day. Start by watching the waiting staff who would have had much more contact with Skripal than other customers.

The reason it’s such a big deal
is because if it is Russia then it could be construed as a state-sanctioned act of war.

If Skripal had been quietly bumped off in his home then it would still be an outrageous attack on a British citizen, but to deploy a nerve agent in a public area also targets civilians. It’s the equivalent to another country giving the go ahead to blow him up on a bus. If that had happened, no one would be wondering why it was such a big deal. But nerve agents are more insidious and don’t make for such dramatic photos on the news, so people wonder what all the fuss is about.

@WinstonlovesJulia1984
Not by Germany they wouldn't!

I know it's not that simple. But it's naive to think that a country like Russia is ever going to let it go.

Does anyone seriously doubt that Putin did this?
He's really clever if he has got people believing that Russia didn't do it.
If course they did. And they want everyone to know ffs.

Exactly feral so it is all relative isn't it? The Burgess, Maclean debacle etc told us that

Even if you accept it’s ok to execute people without trial because they are spies it’s not ok to launch a chemical attack to do so. Such attacks can and do kill anyone unfortunate enough to be near at the time.

He's really clever if he has got people believing that Russia didn't do it.
If course they did. And they want everyone to know ffs.

It seems that he has got some people in this country believing that Russia didn't do it as well which seems quite incredible to me.

feral you can't attach blanket moral judgements like "wrong" or "right" - it depends on who is being spied on and the political climate of the times doesn't it?

Very few people choose to be a spy or a double agent! It's a very naive view.

Take for example terrorist activity. How do you think intelligence agencies get their information.

Do you think that one day John Smith waltzes into MI6 and says you know what I fancy being a spy in the middle east, if you are ok with it I'll take myself off to Iraq and have a crack at infilitrating a terrorist cell?

What actually happens is a lot of time is spent selecting and grooming individuals who are already embedded in the situation and slowly over years persuading them to leak intelligence information to the "enemy" state or agency.

Those who are providing this type of information have been persuaded to do it and are usually knowingly doing it at personal risk to their own life. Why do you think they would do that? Do you think it's a great salary? Or something you can brag about in the pub? Or a bit of fun? Or does it occur to you that they believe they are doing the right thing at risk to their own life?

Of course Russia did it. They could have been sneakier and just got a hit man to murder him. They did it this way to make a massive statement and that there is no doubt. The message to all other "enemies of Russia" and a massive message to our government that they do what they like. Theresa May was forced to make a strong statement. Other countries are in support. If you are a spy you run the risk of being murdered certainly, but deserve to be murdered ? Wow, back to the middle ages

Don't argue with stupid, they have more experience and will drag you down to their level.

Skripal was found guilty in a trial. He was sentence to (& spent) years in prison (in Russia, afaik). So this execution could be considered a post-trial extra sentence added without any additional public legal proceedings. Like if you were found guilty of stealing 16 yrs ago, went to gaol for 6 months, but the sentencing guidelines changed so today you could be dragged back to prison (with no notice or appeal procedure) to serve the minimum extra time according to the new law.

Funny... we've got people on here saying.

It's ok to execute someone without a trial
It's not ok to accuse the Russians without a trial

Not convinced these posters care about trials at all.

This was intended to be a very public execution and we were to be left in no doubt that it was from the hands of the Russians but with little or no proof as to publicly accuse them. It has gone drastically wrong for them in that they so far haven't succeeded in murdering them, an innocent person has also been attacked and we obviously have a way of knowing that it was only the Russians that could have produced this nerve agent. Also to the person up thread who said a spy deserves all they get, it's not always so simple. They may not hold the same beliefs, sometimes they are 'turned' against their will if they have been caught. I should know I've read enough spy novels....👀😉