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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think council tax rises are a joke

276 replies

lljr82 · 16/03/2018 10:05

Another huge inflation busting rise in council tax, but they've closed the library, not fixed loads of potholes, reduced rubbish collecting, social care is apparently poorly funded, the school has to beg for money at the start of each term, closed the fire station, closed a hospital nearby, reduced police numbers and won't even visit when my car was broken into even though there should be CCTV footage of it.

It just seems like a joke. Where is the money going?

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 13:11

Snibble
Even if you cannot stand for election you can help to hold the council and the government to account

I have found the lack of understanding of how Council Tax works to be very depressing.
People do not understand - and they then moan in an uninformed manner.

Online petitions are an utter and complete waste of time.
Reading the Council website and documents and asking pertinent questions - either by email or in person at meetings will have a much greater effect.

When I see authorities that represent thousands of electors having three people turn up to meetings
it makes me realise how lazy most people are.

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 13:14

thenaze
Our council was run by Labour for 3 crazy years & it doubled under those spendthrifts & they drew down half the reserves!
How many decades ago was that ?
As NO larger authority will have doubled their council tax in three years (I have all the data sets downloaded)

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 13:26

There are issues though:

  • Work patterns
  • Family commitments esp single parent families
  • Transport

The meetings are set up in a way that means that accessibility will be hard for some. With the numbers it's not realistic to have multiple, but they could look into other ways to get people to engage e.g. opening it up over the net as many businesses do now. Mayor's office proactively asks for views on lots of stuff. It would be good to say how to do this more - without expecting ordinary people to research. Bottom line is they do not WANT the public involved - we tend to get in the way. Recent planning commitee meetings for a contraversial plan here were cancelled on short notice, moved on short notice, and one of them the committee people were shouting at the people who had come and refused to hear anything they wanted to say.

Anyway.

Saying if you aren't involved then you have no right to complain is pointless. Most people won't / can't get involved and so all that comes across is "you have no right to complain".

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 13:29

Those are not issues - they are excuses

Planning applications all go on the portal well before the meeting - send in a submission

Many councils live stream their meetings - if they do not, ask them to (under the 2014 legislation)

If ordinary people do not bother to do research, that is their problem.

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 13:37

This is exactly the sort of attitude that puts people off.

You say you think people should get involved but it's a lie really.

Lots of "ordinary people" have low reading age, and they've made the libraries as difficult as possible to get access too lol. Accessibility issues are real, not "excuses".

Plenty of businesses and teh mayors office have made it as easy as possible to get involved. This thing where it's made obscure / difficult / complicated / you have to put in loads of research is in order to keep the public away. Councils do not WANT more pissed off people at their meetings, they just want to push teh stuff through.

This is a sort of right-wing attitude that I don't like really.

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 13:40

People with disabilities, single parent families, those with other time-intense situations, difficulty in accessing transport, elderly people, etc etc -

"excuses"

This is SO right wing I hate it.

We ALL pay our taxes and ALL have the right to complain if they are spent badly or indeed our councils act ILLEGALLY.

BlindAssassin1 · 18/03/2018 13:50

Council tax rises in my area too.

In other news, councillors have given themselves a juicy pay rise and our MP voted for cuts to free school meals. But you know, we're all in it together, so that's all right then. Hmm

I don't mind paying tax, I drive on roads and don't want anyone to go hungry. But all of these instances of those in power shitting on the rest of us from a great height while rewarding themselves is too much to bear.

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 13:56

We ALL pay our taxes and ALL have the right to complain if they are spent badly or indeed our councils act ILLEGALLY.
47% of adults do not pay income tax

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 14:15

Seriously?

We are talking about council tax here

You judge who is allowed to comment about services based on how much they pay in? So, people with disabilities who don't work should have no recourse around their services? Ditto pensioners who pay no tax? Children?

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

We are all part of society not just the tranche who fit your criteria - which seem to add up to:

  • not young (mostly)
  • not old (mostly)
  • paying income tax
  • without cumbersome care responsibilities / non standard shift patterns
  • not too disabled to work
  • well educated enough to be able to research and navigate the complexities of the functioning of different council activities, committees, etc

Happily, this tends to leave the people we have involved in running things at the moment.

Awesome Smile

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 14:16

Oh hold on not just comment on services

But complain

Including about them acting illegally.

Right-ho.

TerfyMcTerface · 18/03/2018 14:19

We haven’t even received our bill yet. Given that the first payment is due on 1 April, surely reasonable notice should be given?

MongerTruffle · 18/03/2018 14:26

The actual council part of your bill is allowed to go up by up to 6% if the council is responsible for social care, otherwise they have to hold a referendum. Your council tax doesn't just go to the council, it goes to the police, fire brigade and, if you have one, your parish council.

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 14:28

We have a contribution for the mayor/london thingy as well. Just FYI.

SnibbleAgain · 18/03/2018 14:30

If you google council tax 2018 and where you are you should be able to find it I hope. Ours was there when I did that.

Kingsclerelass · 18/03/2018 14:33

Up 6% here. I guess for adult social care, children's services, the handed-on cost of obligatory pensions plus inflation. Not thrilled but ok I suppose.
But not happy with Hampshire PCC who budgeted an extra £440,000 for doing absolutely nothing as far as I can see.
If we have to pay, why can't we keep our police officers instead of some pointless bureaucrat.

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 14:51

We haven’t even received our bill yet. Given that the first payment is due on 1 April, surely reasonable notice should be given?
YES - you should have had it by now.
THe details will be on their website, but "subtle" use of their FB page is in order. Wink

Kingsclere
But not happy with Hampshire PCC who budgeted an extra £440,000 for doing absolutely nothing as far as I can see.
I'm Hampshire too and that is the one part of my bill that makes me seethe.
The PCC was elected on a turnout of 18%
The last one was a good bloke who engaged
This one is a shower of wasted money
THe police are disappearing up their own fundament and the merger with the Fire service has hacked everybody off

Jellykat · 18/03/2018 15:08

Up 12.5 % here.
We have no street lighting, no police for at least 20 miles, only salt gritting of 2x A roads and constant council works cutting down healthy tree limbs nowhere near the road.
Our council also have a liking for regularly building tiny pavements around 25 metres long that go from nowhere to nowhere, which can take over 3 months (at one point 2 workers built a breeze block building, while 3 stood around smoking fags, then took it down again.) Work creation schemes we call them..

WhirlwindHugs · 18/03/2018 15:31

Talkin I know you are frustrated but your attitude is unfair.

I am very heavily involved with the local council at the moment. It is a huge time commitment, easily twenty-thirty hours a week that I am doing for free, I have a team that are also working at least a day or two a week on our project. We have Council liaisons that help us (again in their own time!) because it is not obvious and we did not know how to work with all the Council related procedure to start with.

It would be genuinely impossible for someone who does not have access to good advice, lots of time and a team with very specific skills to do.

Our team needed, and was very successful at getting community engagement.(I have the figures to prove it!)

The reasn for that it that we made it abundently clear that there were lots of ways to take part in local democracy that weren't just voting once every few years and we explained very clearly, regularly, and as many different ways as possible how to do it. We gave them the confidence to engage with their elected representatives.

Most people have never even been taught what the structure of their particular council is. They know nothing about it. And I don't just mean disadvantaged people, I mean most people.

Treating them like they are stupid or deserve what they get because of that doesn't make them want to get involved, it turns them off.

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 17:26

Whirlwind
You are right. I got angry too quickly.

Out of interest, what got you involved?
and are you dealing with a NALC authority or an LGA authority ?

What do you think councils should do to reach out
when I train them I constantly remind them that the are older, whiter, richer and more male than their electors
HOW
do we engage people to take even the initial steps ?
how should the websites change to make them work for real people?
should they use social media?
should they do paper newsletters ?

REAL questions (council governance is my day job and good answers here I can feed into the system ...)

IWasACandidate · 18/03/2018 19:03

Most people have never even been taught what the structure of their particular council is. They know nothing about it. And I don't just mean disadvantaged people, I mean most people.

This is so true, and not just local democracy, but at a national level too. I deliver workshops and talks in my own time on behalf of the UK Parliament Engagement and Outreach Service to try and bridge that gap, and always include info about how to engage with local democracy too.

But it's so disheartening at times. So many people seem to have an opinion about how useless and corrupt everyone who has been elected are, and are quick enough to post it on social media or even say it to my face, but equally those same people aren't interested in learning how things work, or engaging, they just seem to want to denigrate and abuse.

I won't stand as a candidate again at any level, unfortunately. I was working towards being selected as a national candidate, but the attitudes of people towards candidates, let alone elected Cllrs & MPs, is just so unpleasant that I've stepped away and am working behind the scenes now. I'm not the only one. And yes, I know that means that more middle aged, middle class, white men will end up being elected - but until the electorate wakes up to the impact their behaviour has, that's the way it'll probably stay.

TalkinPeace · 18/03/2018 19:07

Iwas
that is a shame
what would it take to get you back involved at parish level - even using the 3 mile rule?
what would it take to get you involved with a CALC or as an IA

as it seems a waste to miss out on your energy and information

IWasACityCouncillorOnce · 18/03/2018 20:39

I was a city councillor (unitary authority) for 13 years, most of those at Cabinet level. I was a lone parent for that time, and there were many issues around childcare, meeting times, late night council sessions, people turning up unannounced at the house, threatening behaviour, having to publish one's address etc.

It's not for the faint of heart. One's own colleagues can prove amongst the biggest hurdles.

I've posted my (carefully written!) memoirs online but I don't know if linking is permitted in blog form? Although there's plenty in the press about how and why I resigned - involving a male colleague's behaviour and what I perceived as my council group's crap response - that I could link to, and a Victoria Derbyshire interview.

IWasACityCouncillorOnce · 18/03/2018 20:53

I've just PM'd a poster the link and happy to do that for anyone else.

WhirlwindHugs · 18/03/2018 21:01

Out of interest, what got you involved?

I live in Northants - our team is trying to maintain a service that NCC has a legal duty to provide but doesn't want to because of finances.

and are you dealing with a NALC authority or an LGA authority?

We deal a lot with our town council (NALC), a bit with our district council and MPs and a lot with NCC. (LGA)

What do you think councils should do to reach out?

Everything has to start from the basic assumption that your electorate does not already know how procedures work, but that if they did they might want to get involved.

There is no one way for them to get involved, you have to offer as many different kinds of engagement as possible, and be as responsive as possible in those media. Sound bites suck, no one wants those. Engagements should be as unique as possible too.

For example, one thing that has struck me is that it would be good if the public could comment in the middle of Council meetings - ie structure: public speak, relevant committe/cabinet speak, opposition speak, public speak again - vote. This places the public in the role of more equal representatives and gives them a chance to reply. It's pretty frustrating if you are sat in the docks and a cllr says something false or misleading, and your only hope is that another cllr spots it and calls them out. The current set up positions the public as junior in their knowledge at all times to Cllrs, which can be ridiculous as cllrs can't be experts in everything and if there are people in the gallery it's not unusual for at least one of them to know the topic in intense detail or who has worked the job they're talking about for 40 years...

Being accessible is not just about sticking public meetings on a calendar you have to be savvy with the website to find. Say an LGA does a consultation about something - there will then be meetings about that thing for the LGA to deliberate and decide. Depending on the set up there may be a cabinet that makes the decision then passes it on to the whole council to vote or a committee that makes the recommendation. That is a lot of information that a lay person won't know to look for or realise they can be involved with.

In my experience although the financially documents are all on NCC's website, they are not very well organised and are hard to search through. Most reports also are not written in plain language. It's okay for them to have certain level of technical detail but in general this kind of thing has to stop.

When/where these meetings will be and the significance of each one needs to be ON THE SAME PAGE as the information about the consultation. So that people know, in advance, which meeting they need to go to and when they need to speak, they also need to be able to easily see if they have to register in advance any rules etc.

Long term engagement often starts with a single issue, it's really important to get how it's consulted on right if you want it to lead not just to a consultation with the masses but future engagement from an informed public.

how do we engage people to take even the initial steps ?

With tiny steps.

Ask them to send an email about one bipartisan issue (if engagement is your main aim it must always be bipartisan, even if you work for labour/tories that can't be your angle. It has to be everyone's voices are welcome) then later, can you come to X meeting. Celebrate small milestones of engagement. Remind councillors not be arsey if the public turning up for the first time make protocol mistakes. Get councillors to chat to the public after the meeting and invite them back.

Only ever ask one or two things at time. People have time for one or two small things a week. They don't have time if you present it as a year long committment or whatever... In a years time, if they feel they are being heard, the amount of time they are prepared to give to engagement will go up. They will tell others it's worth going.

how should the websites change to make them work for real people?

I've spoken a bit about this above: Basically every kind of engagement the public can make about whatever issue should be in ONE PLACE on the website. That one place needs to be short, to the point and written in plain English (readable to an eleven year old)

So if a person is unhappy with the school system say they should be able to see, how to email a complaint, the council education twitter page, the current consultation and upcoming public meetings about education.

Having done that with the website, you can not assume that people will access the website. If engagement is important, you have to go our there and talk to people about it. Town hall debates and Q&As are really important and we should have more of them. Having them before elections would be amazing.

We met our MP in a local Tesco once. This is kind of weird if you want to talk about something personal, but it's good if you just want to be saying 'hi, we're here, you can talk to us.' Or if a group of residents have a bee in their bonnet you can advise them to turn up en masse.

Consultations about LG issues need to be short and precise. They should not be written to engineer one answer or another. I know this sounds like my optimistic side talking - but actually it's really important. If people start reading a twenty page consultation about the bus say - and are confused or can't see any answers that fit what they want to say they can worry about saying the wrong thing and decide to say nothing. They know they are being manipulated and it makes them feel angry and upset but also less likely to engage because they know the 'wrong' answer could be manipulated. We came across this all the time.

should they use social media?

Yes. Definitely.

There's two sides to this - obviously our work is bipartisan, single issue so although we engage with local governement a lot, we also utilised it as a tool to help people understand what the LG was doing and how they could respond. We used it to build and amplify voices and reach people that won't see a consultation listed on a website or in a town hall. Guides about how to fill in consultations were really valued. We've used facebook live and twitter to do these before. Literally someone talking through every single question on the form, while residents asked questions about what different parts of the form meant. When we did this last I remember a lot of discussion about the word 'mitigate' for example, plain language is really important. All initials have to be explained too.

Social media presence is important and most places have this now. But you have to hit all demographics meaningfully, not just with PR, otherwise one demographic or another isn't getting any news about things they can take part in, just press releases. That's not engagement, unless you are asking from feedback from the public then there is no engagement.

Councillors individually having a social media presence is good, it's a way for people to talk. They should have training about what to do if people are rude before they start though.

Something that I think works quite well is when councillors get involved in individual campaign's about their special interest online. People might not follow a councillor, or a town council page, but they might follow a twitter account about bike lanes that happens to be run by a councillor. The councillor can make sure people know how they can engage with the LG system as well as doing more usual social media campaign tactics.

The problem with councillor pages that put some people off is that there are whips involved. There is political pressure to always be regurgitating whatever their whip says. People who aren't already knee deep in a party hate that.

Online and face to face engagement means taking the feedback face-to-face which is hard. Having councillors who can resist the urge to be defensive is really important and really builds on the process. You can see the difference in followers and interaction numbers. Building up a good relationship can be quite quick if you put them time into it. It's about being transparent and honest and passing on information as soon as you can.

should they do paper newsletters ?

Quarterly newsletters or whatever other postal publications should never be just a propaganda exercise (most of them are in my experience) again, they should have pages on each element of running the county that is up being decided on at that time, with the webpage, email address, postal address and any key dates that people need to know. Older people are really unlikely to go on a website but they will probably read a magazine, so yes I do think they are important, plus they can spread news around small towns faster than the internet sometimes...

WhirlwindHugs · 18/03/2018 21:07

Sorry about all the typos, long week...

IWas That sounds hideous, I'm really sorry you weren't protected. I don't know why full addresses have to be published, it seems rather archaic, the general area ought to be fine as long as it can be checked by whoever needs to at the Council.

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