To think the cheaper the kids clothes the more gendered the clothing?

[howmuchtoomuch]

DS needed some new tracksuit bottoms for nursery today, so I popped to ASDA. I hadn't realised quite how prolific their gendering of kids clothing was, slogans everywhere!

On the boys side:
‘The louder the better’
‘A bit of dirt never hurt’
‘Rad like dad’

And the girls:
‘Smiley happy dreams’
‘Mummy’s little flower’
‘Giggly and cute’

And the two crimes against fashion I've attached here.

A recent trip to Sainsbury's saw similar results. Whereas a trip to Polarn O Pyret (which I can't afford!) didn't. Not a slogan in sight in PoP!

So why is it that cheaper clothes tend to carry gendered stereotypes? Is it market driven?

Scandi brands are good for unisex bright clothing. Lindex, Fixoni and H&M are at the cheaper end, then you have Duns, Maxomorra, JNY, Albakid, Boys&Girls, Villervalla, Moromini, POP etc. Have a look online, you can get them cheaply in sales or secondhand. Better than buying cheap gendered stuff that only lasts a few months.

"That’s exactly my point."

????

You mean the one I made earlier. I said that none of us know whether it's nature or nurture and that I'm basing my opinion on observations of thousands and thousands of children but would change my mind instantly if presented with evidence contrary to my thoughts.

I would say that as well as observation / annecdote, it seems likely to me that with the multitude of observable differences from the neck down, it seems foolish to suggest that anything from the neck up is due to nurture. Especially in the face of evidence that there are some significant differences in male and female brains and in the chemical make up of our bodies that have an effect on our behaviour.

I also feel like people who usually deny that there can be any innate differences do so from a moral (?) / ideological standpoint. I don't care if differences are because of nature or nurture; you simply encourage each child according to who they are. I think you have more of a need to be right because it would undermine so many of your beliefs. It wouldn't make much or any difference to anything I do or think.

I really want to know a few of your thoughts as I've answered all of yours as well as I can.

Do you think there are innate sex-based differences in brains and behaviour?

(I assume you'll say 'no')

Why do you think that despite so many observable differences in men and women, including the brain (physical make-up as well as the way it fires) we cannot be different mentally because of our sex?

Why do you think I'm wrong?

"Do you feel that only providing clothes girls cant play properly in is an issue?"

I don't think it's an issue because I don't think it happens. A t-shirt is a t-shirt. Clothing that does inhibit movement in either sex is wrong but the issue seems to be slogans and colours, not anything else. I haven't seen corsets and pencil skirts mentioned.

Our school uniform (the only girl clothing I have anything to do with - I'm a mother of boys) is skorts and a blouse. Boys have trousers / shorts and a shirt. If anything, the girls' uniform is probably less restrictive. There's a similar theme in Senior School but trousers for boys and skirts for the girls.

Oh Jesus you'd hate me my little girls has spent the afternoon in frilly pink ballet dress along with floral head and! Sure I'll be regretting it in years to come when I look at the massive trauma and damage it will have caused! Get a bloody life.

Glass presumably she wanted to wear it? You didn't force her in to it whilst telling her girls are only for looking pretty? She'll be fine but you've missed the point.

Glassofred - why would anyone hate you because of what your daughter wears?
Nobody said girls shouldn't wear pink or ballet dresses. Can't you read?

There is a big difference between girls choosing to wear pink/frills etc, and girls being constantly given the message that 1) pink and frills are all that girls should want to wear 2) if they don't, then they are not a proper girl and 3) that girls are 'pretty princesses' because that's what it says on t-shirts. If you don't think any of that has an effect on society's expectations of women and women's expectations of themselves then you're a fool.

Jan, thank you for the response - some interesting thoughts (and yes, when you said ‘resort to’ I interpreted it in its most commonly used, negative sense.

However I’m still stuck on how that all fits into the ‘boys will be boys’ trope, which is generally applied to excusing or minimising behaviours that would be perceived as negative when applied to girls. You hear it about fighting, about not being careful and breaking things, about going to strip clibs and having lap dances. As well as the fine (by me) messy/dirty play.

I think it’s a pernicious phrase. It says we’ll allow, or turn a blind eye to, behaviours we don’t think are ok for girls. Shit for both genders. Boys: these are ‘boy behaviours’, if that’s not you, you’re not really manly. Girls: we tolerate things in boys that aren’t ok for you.

Pretty shit for everyone, really.

It's a shame the cheaper stores don't offer a wider range/less tacky range.

Ps... howmuchtoomuch Polarn have just gone into sale today

polarnopyret.co.uk

And according to the website it is POOR ARN OH PEER ET ??

Auto correct...

"Pole arn oh peer et"

The 'programming' of boys and girls starts very early. I see it all the time. Dads at softplay saying 'be gentle with the girls' as if female toddlers are more fragile. Mums saying 'up you get, don't be a baby' when their son falls over but cuddling their daughter. The 'boys don't cry' thing is very damaging.

I've had people say to me 'she's bold/strong/loud for a girl isn't she?' (It's usually older people who say this so perhaps a generational thing. When DD is wearing pink people often say 'isn't she pretty' or 'what beautiful curls she has' but not when she's wearing unisex colours. She gets mistaken for a boy when she's in blue. She's only 2.5 but already soaking up feedback from strangers, friends, relatives, peers. I would rather she hears affirmations that she is clever, strong, brave. I avoid dressing her in girly outfits.

Society is still very focused on women's appearance and it starts from babyhood.
I'd rather my daughters aspire to be scientists/doctors/engineers than housewives, models or pop stars.

Jan

Please read delusions of gender.

I have @Sevendown

The darling of the virtue signalling liberals is an appalling author.

"The 'programming' of boys and girls starts very early." - yes. Pre-birth @OneStepSideways . That's where differences in the brain and the way it works are first seen. No soft play in the womb though, which suggests ... yep ... boys and girls are different and it isn't society which makes it so.

The darling of the virtue signalling liberals is an appalling author.

‘Virtue signalling liberals’ - do you have a list of words and phrases you copy and paste?

No. I'm a really quick typist.

I find Zara baby quite good for a better variety of clothes. I've nothing too much against all the diggers and dinosaurs but it is quite boring.

I agree, I really struggle in supermarkets because I hate loud shouty slogans across dd's clothes & bright pink, I'm not against dressing her in girly things their clothes are just not my taste at all, I tend to use next, white company, H&M, Zara etc, they tend to have plainer things

No. I'm a really quick typist.

I was quoting your own sanctimony from earlier in the thread, but I suspect you knew that.

You know, earlier I gave you the benefit of the doubt and I tried to engage with you in good faith m, but you’ve repeatedly shown you’re not actually interested in discussing issues, you just want to belittle and shut people down.

No belittling or shutting down anywhere. I think you've confused me with someone else.

Yes, I did get the reference.

No, I haven’t. I think we’ll have to disagree on both the tone of your posts, and your willingness to engage in two way dialogue.

The 'programming' of boys and girls starts very early." - yes. Pre-birth @OneStepSideways . That's where differences in the brain and the way it works are first seen

I don't disagree with this. There are innate differences in the way male and female brains work. And on some level I wonder if it harks back to the hunter gatherer days eg males evolving to have better spatial awareness/image processing skills than females, since they would have to cover large distances and navigate back from hunts.
But even if this is true, what good does it do us nowadays? Girls should be encouraged to focus on health, strength, physical fitness and earning potential just as much as boys. Gone are the days when women's sole purpose in life was to look pretty, snare a husband and make home.

Don't you think we should give girls a boys a level playing field, instead of shaping them to fit traditional gender roles? Slogans seem harmless but imagine if a young girl is told daily 'you're a pretty princess, a cute kitten, a cupcake, a glittery barbie doll, a fluffy bunny, mummy's little helper' etc. Will this not affect her self image and how others perceive her? Imagine she is told instead 'you're strong, brave, a warrior, a superhero, saving the world, having adventures, you can be anything you want'. Don't you think it will have an impact long term?

I went into Asda and easily got plain clothing for my son. It was a striped t shirt with matching zipped hoody. Just looked at the website and it doesn't seem to be overly slogan orientated. direct.asda.com/george/kids/boys-4-14-years/D25M1G1C24,default,sc.html

We're not saying every item has a slogan biscuiteater, not at all. We're saying that there are generally more clothes with 'gender-specific' slogans in cheaper stores like ASDA or Primark.

Of course there are plainer clothes too.

Also, try looking at the younger kids' sections, biscuiteater

Just a quick glance at the George 1-6 boys section brought up all of these...

Yes just looked at Asda younger kids section and I can see what you mean. I think you have to shop around and be choosy. Just looked at Matalan as I went there today and saw some nice boys things but too young for my son. Might be worth a look for the OP but again there's slogans in amongst it.

I did the girls too...