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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to say no to plans to allow anyone to change the sex on their birth certificate? Last day to submit your views!

50 replies

DoctorW · 28/02/2018 18:35

Last chance to submit your views on-line about transgender law reform in Scotland. Deadline is 5pm Thursday. It's open to everyone - you don't have to be Scottish or even from the UK.

Scottish proposals include allowing anyone to change the sex on their birth certificate by filling in a form. This means male prisoners would be able to abuse the system and transfer to women's prisons. They might even allow children as young as 12 to do this without parent consent! The impact on wider society hasn't really been thought through and I explain why in this short 5 min video. Please watch and see what you think.

You don't have to fill the questionnaire in in detail - just tick the boxes if that's all you can do. 10 mins is all you need.

OP posts:
Garmadonsmum · 01/03/2018 16:25

Get husbands/friends/partners to fill it in too. There's still time. Mine was a bit meh until I talked to him about under16s being able to legally self declare a sex change, and that I could become a man without his consent and it would not nullify our marriage in any way.

trevortrevorslattery · 01/03/2018 16:39

Thanks - done

SeamusMacDubh · 01/03/2018 22:12

I can't believe what I just watched @Datun.

So, people actually believe that biological facts are not facts and that people discussing them are brainwashing others?

I really couldn't work out what the different biology of men and women had to do with nazis or fascism but maybe I'm just brainwashed Hmm

DN4GeekinDerby · 02/03/2018 00:14

Stella Don't assume people who disagree with self-ID and other proposed changes aren't dysphoric. Personally, I find the idea that anyone is born feeling this way shows a lack of understanding of how gender dysphoria works. Even as someone diagnosed as a child, I can assure you I was not born feeling distressed by my body. That is just how my brain reacted to how gender was imposed on me. Some may be more predisposed to it, but all the information of dysphoria does not give much evidence we're born with it any more than people predisposed to PTSD are born with it.

Also, not everyone is a criminal, but the UK still has laws, the UK still requires checks for many jobs, the UK requires non-EU immigrants to have biometric ID to work in the UK. We do many things for the sake of potential criminals. Dysphoria does not mean that the risks to us or by us should not be considered, that's patronizing and puts many of us at risk.

Dalek In Ireland, which has self-ID, prisoners are still placed by their birth sex. The dangers to a dysphoric person does not outweigh the risks to the rest of the population. Having space for dysphoric prisoners would make far more sense and safeguards than just putting them in with the other sex, particularly seeing as the vast majority of dysphoric people do not get genital surgery. In fact, according to GIRES - a pro-self ID group - the vast majority (4/5ths) of dysphoric people never go through any form of medical treatment for it.

While I understand the concern for some trans women, I would like you to consider this - do you think trans men will be safer in a men's prisons? We all know they won't be but if we push people to be placed by a paperwork exercise (I've gotten a statutory declaration - I was in and out with someone I'd never seen before and never seen since for less than 10 minutes, dysphoric people deserve better than that) and have that alter where prisoners end up, that is what is being suggested should happen. Female dysphoric people in men's prisons. Neither identity or dysphoria is going to protect anyone and neither should it allow male dysphoric people to put female prisoners at greater risk. There are other solutions as have been made by other countries.

Leotine This isn't progressive, it's a mockery. This is all a red herring under the guise of really fake caring. Progressive would be putting more funding into therapies, into research, into supporting people being sex role non-conforming, to have better education on the human body so people know the benefits, risks and limitations of these treatments and better protections to prevent the abuse of the medications involved, so many things other than ignoring dysphoria is a serious medical condition that in no way is treated by altering paperwork.

We already have people buying hormones and blockers online with no medical oversight because people are pushing that it's progressive to just do it yourself, that dysphoria is just a matter of hormones even when every single paper on it shows that cross-sex hormones without therapy raises the risks of further mental health problems and suicide. That attitude is putting dysphoric lives at risk and I think anyone who thinks this proposal is based in a progressive attitude, that it's going to help any actual dysphoric people rather than people who already muscle in, that this in anyway is going to help us live fuller lives or prevent violence against us, that thinks those potential criminals are worth the risks, needs to remember that gender dysphoria is not treated by what a piece of paper says and for the vast majority of dysphoric people this will give no additional benefits over previous legislation.

It's not progressive, it's a smokescreen, and the conversation of enforcing the exceptions in the equality act and how the protection of sex - a protected class - works alongside GRC will still need to be worked out as there is nothing in the proposals that really touch any of it. That clarity is sorely needed.

pedigreeRacer · 02/03/2018 01:03

Filled it in. Another one with completely opposing views to you. Thanks for the reminder.

SmileEachDay · 02/03/2018 08:42

I’m pleased that people filled this in - even though there is a fair bit of “I have a different view so nerr” on this thread.

I’d far rather people engaged with this issue and made informed decisions than just blindly accepted everything trans in the name of liberal kindness.

I’d love someone who has really considered the issues from both sides and has decided there is no impact on women to talk me through their thinking- I’d love to be reassured that I’m wrong.

HairyBallTheorem · 02/03/2018 14:16

Datun that video! Shock Angry Just when you think you can't peak any more... saying that men are on average taller than women now makes you a Nazi? What the fuck are these people smoking?

(Though amused at the "I've filled it in with the opposite views to you so nerr" poster proudly filling it in a day after the closing date).

EenaMinaMoe · 02/03/2018 14:37

Filled in - another who didn't go the MN approved way, but I did engage with the process which I think we all agree matters. Smile

EenaMinaMoe · 02/03/2018 14:40

(And before anyone comments, I filled it in before the deadline. Just forgot to post on here until today)

HairyBallTheorem · 02/03/2018 14:49

Out of interest, Eena, how did you answer the "should one partner declaring themselves trans not be grounds for divorce" question? Presumably one can be pro self-ID without being pro everything in that consultation document?

Garmadonsmum · 02/03/2018 15:13

I do wonder which sections the posters who didn't post in the "way the Op wanted" disagreed with. Allowing under 16s to legally change sex through self declaration perhaps? Or thinking that marriage is not affected by one party self declaring as a different sex to what they were when you married? Or that these changes are so trivial that you can self declare as a different gender repeatedly throughout your life?
I wish one of the "nerr" posters would elaborate a bit.

Datun · 02/03/2018 15:49

I wish one of the "nerr" posters would elaborate a bit.

Well they won't, because they haven't read the thread. They've just read the opening post. And had a knee-jerk reaction.

That's why it's so important to keep talking about this. Eventually, some of it will get through.

The Trans-activists hashtag #NoDebate is really doing a number on some people.

And I can say that with complete confidence.

Because I have never yet seen a plausible argument for self id of 12-year-olds without parental consent.

Or being forced to say you are in a same-sex marriage because you are married to a cross dresser.

(Men with gender dysphoria, don't tend have fathered children and be married to women.)

Neither have I seen anyone, who is not completely off their head, claim that biology is fascist.

Except students, who are spending tens of thousands of dollars attending university to further, what one assumes, is some form of education!

Skarossinkplunger · 02/03/2018 20:57

Really Datun? You know for certain I haven’t read the thread, or done any research or spoken to people who would
be affected by this issue? How could that be?

Newsflash, it’s ok for people to think differently than you.

Skarossinkplunger · 02/03/2018 21:02

That's why it's so important to keep talking about this. Eventually, some of it will get through.

Yep because you banging on and on about it and assuming everyone who doesn’t agree with you is stupid is bound to make me change my mind.

Garmadonsmum · 02/03/2018 21:11

Ok, so why not answer the questions I asked a few posts below? I'm interested to see whether the disagreement is a blanket one or if there are points we can agree on.

Betti935 · 02/03/2018 21:15

Yep because you banging on and on about it and assuming everyone who doesn’t agree with you is stupid is bound to make me change my mind.

It actually does work, at least some of the time. I know because I (and many other people on here) have changed our minds.

I don't know if I would say I was stupid exactly but I was ignorant and close-minded. Because it was an issue that felt personal to me (as part of the LGBT community) I had a knee-jerk reaction to it and didn't really listen to what was being said, just assuming that these people were bigots while ignoring some of the nonsensical and contradictory things I was supposed to believe and the worrying things I was seeing in 'my community'.

I'm glad these Mumsnetters have persevered with us as, when I finally started listening, it made sense of everything I was experiencing, although it was very difficult to accept.

I used to assume that they were being alarmist and that the authorities would of course put safeguards in place to prevent any abuse of the system but no they really haven't thought it through or just don't give a crap about women.

cardibach · 02/03/2018 21:18

Well, I’m as gender critical as they come. I think the whole thing is a giant clusterfuck but I disagree with this, Datun : Men with gender dysphoria, don't tend have fathered children and be married to women
I know a trans woman who has done exactly this. It’s about societal pressures.

Betti935 · 02/03/2018 21:18

Men who claim to be women with no changes other than their name & clothes are already allowed in female wards. Last year in our section 3 men identifying as women were given private rooms because they wouldn't stop wanking next to the other female patients. Not wanking behind the curtains but in their bed, in the middle of the room or in one case over a sleeping 58 year old. These men didn't have ant mental illness. Never in my life have I ever heard of a female patient being moved because they were touching themselves in front of others.

It's terrifying to think that you could be at your most vulnerable and subjected to this kind of behaviour. Whatever happened to the duty to safeguard patients? It seems that the moment the word 'trans' is mentioned any common sense and adherence to patient safety, the Equality Act and other regulations all go out the window. Angry

entropynow · 02/03/2018 21:39

YES. Keep your paws off other people's lives. This is exactly as bad as men trying to prevent abortions.

Skarossinkplunger · 02/03/2018 21:40

Garmadonsmum I’m sorry but I don’t engage with the debate on here anymore. Datun’s post pretty much explains why.

Datun · 02/03/2018 21:47

Skarossinkplunger

I don't call people stupid. Just misinformed.

Which is why I said about the issue of transing 12-year-olds without parental consent and being forced to stay in the marriage which has suddenly become same sex.

Not everyone will read the consultation and realise what is being asked.

You've been on these threads long enough to hear the arguments. If you disagree, then what I'm saying doesn't apply to you.

I know a trans woman who has done exactly this. It’s about societal pressures.

That's tough cardibach. Society has a lot to answer for.

My assertion was more about the way you can categorise transwomen.

Men who remain attracted to women, generally fall into the bracket of autogynephilia, not gender dysphoria. But, of course, we are talking about individuals here, all with a different story.

And yes, different pressures.

Sparkyduchess · 02/03/2018 21:50

That video is shocking - how did we get to a point where university students can consider demonstrable material reality fascist and discriminatory?

My DS is in his first year at uni, and after listening to me bang on about trans activists for 3 years now (thanks to FWR who opened my eyes to the potential for harm to women, and the appalling spectre of ‘transing ‘ children), he’s horrified at the blithe acceptance of ‘transwomen ARE women’, and how quickly any attempt at discussion is shut down as hate speech.

SmileEachDay · 02/03/2018 21:51

YES. Keep your paws off other people's lives. This is exactly as bad as men trying to prevent abortions

How so?

Datun · 02/03/2018 22:04

YES. Keep your paws off other people's lives. This is exactly as bad as men trying to prevent abortions.

I'm not entirely clear which way this is directed.

But trans people have just as many rights as any other protected characteristic. It's all equal, under equality law.

They have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

And women have the protected characteristic of sex.

Which means trans people cannot be discriminated against on the basis of their protected characteristic.

And it's about how the law is applied. What is the fairest outcome.

It becomes unfair, when the validation of a transwoman trumps the rights of a woman to have a female rape crisis counsellor.

The law recognises that. There are exemptions in place precisely to prevent it. But they are being ignored.

Self ID is different to equality law. Th two areas where it is most significant are prisons and all women shortlists for Parliamentary candidates.

In this country, a GRC would automatically give a transwoman transfer to the female estate. Even if they are rapists. Jessica Winfield for example.

A transwoman rapist should be protected in prison, but not at the expense of women. It sets a precedent, where if self ID goes ahead, any sex offender can get transferred to a female prison.

All women shortlists. Self ID isn't even here yet, but we still have a 19-year-old boy occupying the post of the Labour Party Women's officer. He believes he can get pregnant, and biology is irrelevant.

He is campaigning to get women ousted from the Labour Party, despite his remit being the exact opposite.

I would have absolutely zero problem with him being a trans officer.

So, which ever way that post was directed, I agree, keep your hands off women's lives.

DadTryingHisBest28 · 03/03/2018 19:04

People can call themselves as they wish it's up to them, I do however object when we have a speech code propelled against us and I'm told that I have to pretend that women are men and vice versa. Also a lot of myth that exist and push a completely unproven science of gender identity one of the largest being that all the problems of the trans community would disappear if I (royal we) would pretend that women are men and vice versa.

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