Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

To not know whether I was raped?

48 replies

reallybadidea · 20/02/2018 19:01

Been thinking a lot bit about this recently. If someone has sex with you when you're absolutely paralytically drunk, to the extent that you have very little memory of what even happened, is that rape? Even if you would have probably enthusiastically consented had you been sober? And ended up in a relationship (of sorts) for a year afterwards?

This was a long time ago, and the relationship itself fucked me up mentally, but it's only recently that I've started to feel quite angry about how it started. But I don't know whether that is reasonable or not.

OP posts:

Autumnsparkles · 21/02/2018 08:05

Hmmm I have also been thinking about this recently. In my teens I could not hold a drink and was probably known as the local “tart” down the pub.

I don’t think I ever consented once (but then how often do two people stop to get actual consent as in a yes?) I do know that I actively participated and never actually said no to anyone.

It has not helped my mental state as an adult but I do not think it would help me to think I had been raped several times over.

Brahumbug · 21/02/2018 08:19

If you didn't consent then it is rape. If you consented it wasn't rape, quite simple really.

QuiteLikely5 · 21/02/2018 08:30

I think in situations like these it goes on whether he had reasonable cause to believe you were consenting.

I think this is what happened in the Jed Evans case.

The first guy had reasonable cause to believe and the jury accepted that.

It is only a recent development where being absolutely intoxicated means it was impossible for you to consent. However it is hard imo for a drunk man to apply the test himself.

Inkstainedmags · 21/02/2018 08:54

I've had drunken sex. I also once woke up from unconsciousness to find a 'friend' fucking me. I remember very little except saying no before passing out again. It is because of thinking like that on this thread that I buried the event for 20 years until the concept of consent became part of our dialogue. If one party is capable of removing clothing and having sex with the other while the other party is unable to stand unaided or form a coherent sentence then that, in my biased opinion, is rape. Why the fuck would anyone want to have sex with someone who is little more than a rag doll anyway?

I also have a DS and instead of wringing my hands and worrying whether some nasty woman is going to accuse him of rape one day I'm going to consciously teach him about respect, communication skills and consent as they apply to sex. For example, if you have to carry her up the stairs to your flat, why not make her a cup of tea and some toast, put her in bed and see how she feels about sex in the morning when she is able to actively participate?

RedHelenB · 21/02/2018 09:01

How can it be rape and you were both drunk and you say you wanted to have sex?
I would clear this relationship out of your mind, dwelling on it is achieving nothing.

PiffIeandWiffle · 21/02/2018 09:31

A man should have clear consent before he has sex with someone.

But the OP can't remember if she consented - she may well have been consented extremely enthusiastically.

Without victim blaming, maybe don't get into any situation where you can't remember what you've done?

Would people be crying for her to be let off if she'd made a drunken decision to get in her car & mowed 3 people down?

LemonysSnicket · 21/02/2018 09:44

I think it depends on if you were both badly drunk ... so that neither of you could consent. If he was fairly sober then it was rape.

Eilasor · 21/02/2018 09:47

Yes it's rape.

I you were so drunk he carried you upstairs, and he was sober enough to be able to do that (aka recognise how drunk you were), he then decided to take advantage. Even if you were drunkenly asking for it, although from what you said it doesn't sound like you'd have been able to, if he then engaged it was rape.

My DH and I had a casual sexual relationship as teenagers. I would often wake up to him having sex with me. That was also rape; I didn't consent. I never explained to him how violated it made me feel (at the time I would just switch out of that headspace and try to go back to sleep or wait for it to be over due to a bad sexual (again, rape) experience at 15 that I hadn't processed at that time). When we re-met in our 20s he apologised to me and we had a bit of therapy together before continuing our relationship. He was never being malicious in the rape, it was about entitlement and power - but that doesn't make it any less wrong, and he knows that and feels indescribably guilty.

BasilTheCat · 21/02/2018 09:49

@Ink
The clear difference here is that you were unconscious so definitely did not consent. Sorry that happened to you
OP may well have consented at the time, no one will ever know. It seems unreasonable that he needs evidence of every time he has consent from a woman to prevent her coming back in the future and saying she doesn't remember if she said yes.
And I will be teaching DS about this when he is old enough but false accusations occur and ruin honest people's lives.

slothface · 21/02/2018 09:51

I've been raped while asleep. I've also had drunken sex that I barely remember, but I have a couple of flashbacks so I know I wasn't unconscious. On one of the occasions I remember kissing the guy before bringing him home, and the next thing I knew I was waking up naked. I would NEVER had had sex with this person had I been sober, but I don't consider it rape. A bad, alcohol-fuelled decision, yes - I do think it's unfair that men are not given any leeway to also make bad decisions while drunk, of course if someone's unconscious/unable to stand or speak/clearly incapacitated it's clear they can't consent but two equally drunk people, perhaps acting in a way they wouldn't when sober, is not automatically rape to me.

I knew a man who got absolutely hammered and said he woke up to his female friend on top of him, trying to put his penis inside her. She was drunk too. Personally I would say he was assaulted. He thought it was funny.

Pfftkids · 21/02/2018 09:55

The fact that you've said you had a year long relationship with him, broke up but wanted to get back together and now know you won't and this is now the point you are wondering if you were raped makes me think you are trying to cause problems for him

IDoAllMyOwnStunts · 21/02/2018 09:59

Op- lots of people have a limited understanding of the legal definition of rape.

I would have a look at cps (crown prosecution service) website, particularly around consent. Just google ‘consent rape cps’ and it will take you to their website.

People often forget that as well as lacking the freedom and capacity to consent (from the victims perspective) in order to be rape the offender must reasonably believed you did not consent.

No one will know this until you go into enough detail (including lead up to the incident etc) and speaking to the offender to see what he thought.

So in a nutshell whether you have been raped or not can’t really be answered in simple terms on here.

Very difficult for you though.x

Justmyownself · 21/02/2018 10:00

Being drunk doen not mean you were raped. Being unable to consent does. If you were drunk but consented, then you were NOT raped. If you were drunk and did not consent, then you WERE raped (or if you were too drunk to consent).

The issue is consent. Not wheather were drunk.

tiredbutFuckIt · 21/02/2018 10:03

The incident itself is difficult to judge, however as you had a relationship after which seems to have also upset you, that might be colouring your view?
If he was a bit of a twunt during the relationship then it might be easy to focus some of the anger for the relationship on “how it started”
I do think as you say that some counselling is a great idea. It may be that you end up thinking “I will never really know if he raped me, but in any case that relationship was not good” and be ok with that.

kaytee87 · 21/02/2018 10:12

@PiffIeandWiffle it's clear to me that if op was so drunk she had to be carried upstairs then she wasn't fit to consent to sex.

MyNewBearTotoro · 21/02/2018 10:29

I would say that in theory a very drunk person cannot really consent to sex. If somebody is sober or only tipsy and they’re taking a very drunk person home for sex I would say in most circumstances yes, that is rape, even if the drunk person has consented. Being drunk puts you at a huge disadvantage against someone who is sober and being drunk hugely lowers inhibitions so the drunk person may be consenting to things they’d never do sober.

But it becomes hazier when both people are drunk. At Uni i had several drunken one night stands with strangers which I’d never have done sober. I had sex when extremely drunk with a friend who was equally drunk - neither of us could remember it and we only knew it happened because we woke up in bed naked together and found the condom. I doubt i’d have consented to sex sober, but from what others at the party have said we were both up for it at the time and I don’t view it as anything like the time I was raped.

No-one on here can say for sure whether you were raped - the fact you were drunk doesn’t automatically make it rape (unless you were unconscious/ asleep) but it definitely makes the chances you were able to consent lower. If he wasn’t anywhere near as drunk I’d say it becomes even more likely he was in a position to take advantage of you.

Whatever happened it definitely does sound like you had a lucky escape.

BasilTheCat · 21/02/2018 10:44

@NewBear makes an interesting point in that making bad decisions when drunk does not mean that you didn't consent to them at the time.

PiffIeandWiffle · 21/02/2018 11:08

it's clear to me that if op was so drunk she had to be carried upstairs then she wasn't fit to consent to sex.

It's less clear to me and obviously not clear to the OP

And we've no view on how drunk the BF was either.

But then I subscribe to the "don't get so drunk you can't remember what you did" school of thought - it makes life so much simpler!

mirime · 21/02/2018 12:27

@IDoAllMyOwnStunts

People often forget that as well as lacking the freedom and capacity to consent (from the victims perspective) in order to be rape the offender must reasonably believed you did not consent.

That's only important during investigation of a rape or in court though. It's perfectly possible for a woman to have been raped but for the accused to be found to have reasonable believed she consented.

Unless the OP is reporting this as rape to the police it's not really relevant.

In terms of getting help and support, counseling etc. and moving on it's how the OP feels about what happened that matters.

Mummyontherun86 · 21/02/2018 12:32

I think it was rape morally although probably very hard to get a conviction. That doesn’t in any way undermine how violating it was.
Men should absolutely not be having sex with people that can’t walk. It’s abhorrent behaviour and you have every right to feel angry. If I found out someone had done this to someone I would feel very worried about the man’s treatment of women in other areas of his life.

VladmirsPoutine · 21/02/2018 12:40

I don't think it's an open shut case at all.

I'm sorry you went through this, however. It sounds like the relationship really messed with your emotional and mental health.

namechange2222 · 21/02/2018 13:06

If this is rape then I hardly know any women who haven't been raped at some stage. Usually during the boozy late teens and early twenty's.

IDoAllMyOwnStunts · 21/02/2018 13:20

Mirime- I’m not sure what definition of rape you are using then? I don’t see how you can ignore one of the points to prove in deciding if it is or not, even outside of court/police investigation.

Without knowing more details from both parties this case is impossible to say.

Flip

1 2

Swipe left for the next trending thread