Should these threads be banned?

[Situp]

Just been reading this thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3171243-To-want-to-go-to-A-E

In the British culture where a lot of us feel guilty about using NHS resources unnecessarily, lots of people seem to be looking for other people's approval for seeking medical help.

With the 111 service, there is the means for everyone to access this sort of approval from someone who is medically trained and who has asked a lot of relevant questions.

I lost a good friend and mother of 3 last year to sepsis last year because she didn't want to make a fuss and didn't get medical help until it was too late.

People seem to post some quite strong views as to whether someone should attend A & E based on limited information and often no medical training.

Should these threads be treated like those where people are at risk of self harming? The only advice is to call 111?

It would be a tragedy if based on responses here someone did not seek medical help and a serious condition went untreated.

AIBU?

I used to get annoyed about this on pregnancy thread when people were saying the consultant says I need to be induced if I go overdue/ I can't have a home birth etc and people would be saying it's your choice, do what you want.

So ignore the advice of the consultant with all the experience and training, and knowledge of the poster's actual health basically. I think that's irresponsible.

My child had an unusual and seemingly not serious symptom, she saw two GPs who both said nothing to worry about.
Like itsme I googled and got an old mumsnet thread, this had happened to one of them and it turned out to be life threatening.

I took my baby to a&e, she was admitted and had treatment. It could have been so much worse. So the value of the threads helping people years down the line is massive.

I do agree about posters who come on just to shout about the waste of the NHS resources and seem to take real satisfaction in shaming a sick, worried person.
Don't they realise they could actually contribute to someone not receiving help and losing their life?

Also when people say if you are posting on here you can't be that sick, that really isn't true.

Yes, I think those posts are dangerous and should be deleted, with a message telling the op to call 111.

I'm constantly amazed that people will post on forums to get emergency medical advice. Yes, I think these kind of posts should be banned. If you're ill, get advice from a medical professional, not unqualified strangers on the internet.

I agree that it is complicated and I acknowledge that I am approaching it from the position of someone who has witnessed what happens when people don't get help which definitely skews my standpoint.

I know that I would seek medical help if in doubt and wouldn't post a medical question here if I thought it might be acute but I worry for people who would be less confident about using medical resources.

But there are people who always advise 111 so perhaps I am being over sensitive

Agree, blanket message needed, some really dangerous 'advice' on that thread.

The thing with this site getting bigger is yes, there may be more politicised views. However there will also be more HCP’s reading the threads or members, who have read many similar threads and will post based on past experience. That experience generally being that if in doubt, the person should always seek medical advice and arrange to see an OOH service at the very least.

I think the opposite you get loads of posters saying go to a &e for a broken fingernail! I don't think any poster has said ok then I won't bother seeking medical advice and ended up dead.

I agree in principal two but if I had stopped with the advice of the two GPs and not taken the advice of a stranger on the internet my child would likely have been lost.

Doctors are human, sometimes they are unfamiliar with a rare condition and make the wrong call. Sometimes the experience of other parents further down the road than you is worth its weight in gold.

I think the opposite you get loads of posters saying go to a &e for a broken fingernail

I agree with that too. But the reason no real HCP is likely to give medical advice on MN is that it is complicated: you are relying on someone you don't know to convey all the information needed to make an accurate diagnosis. That is risky. Apparently trivial conditions are occasionally very serious.

I admit to once diagnosing a dislocated toe on here but, in my defence, the OP had supplied a photo

I think one of the worst things people do is say “oh if you’re posting here you can’t be that unwell” - complete bollocks. And even when people pile on and say they’ve had sepsis / life threatening conditions and still been able to post (as I have before) you’ll still get some idiot come along and say it again.

I have always wanted them to ban 'what do I do about this burn?' threads, as the good advice gets outweighed by the bad.

It's tricky though, I have seen threads where people have sought help based on advice, and it has saved their life (I'm particularly thinking of an ectopic pregnancy thread, years ago). On the other hand, I posted a question about oxygen levels, and heart rate in ds a few years ago, we had just been to the Drs who sent us away, and I had a niggle something wasn't right. A lot of posters suggested I would be wasting time going to the hospital, and gave bad advice, a couple were very sensible. We went, and ds was admitted with pneumonia, and was in for a week trying to get his oxygen levels stable.

I think if I had posted now, I would have had a slew of posts about wasting nhs resources, and 'people like you ate the reason why...'

I realise now, not to post on Mumsnet and listen to my gut instead.

There was a famous Reddit thread a few years ago where someone was posting about feeling ill and being harassed - another poster recognised the symptoms as carbon monoxide poisoning and saved his life by telling him to get out and to get help. It can be very helpful on occasion; I guess that probably outweighs the less helpful posts, even if it's rare?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11580243/Reddit-user-comes-to-the-rescue.html

I have to admit I have always erred on the side of caution, especially with my son. I tend to use the out of hours if overly concerned or go to a and e if immediate issue.

The messaging around over use of A & E has caused confusion. There’s a perceived problem with A&E because the focus is on breached waiting time targets (the 4hr wait). The 4hr wait is one of the most ambitious A&E targets in the world and has been consistently missed for years, mainly because it is too ambitious.

The media bang on about this breached target incessantly and choose to blame it on people turning up demanding treatment for a broken fingernail or a bad haircut. In reality, the challenges faced by A&E in some places are not caused by over-attendance by people with “minors” (minor ailments that could be effectively treated elsewhere). They are caused by the backlog of discharges of older people with multiple long term conditions back into the community because of the social care crisis.

Most people who attend A&E do need to be seen, and if you are in doubt or worried, especially about a child or elderly relative, then go and let an expert medical professional decide.

I am not medically qualified, but have senior level experience in NHS comms.

Well said, Alberta - as an HCP working in urgent care, I totally agree.

It's funny what your memory does to you...I've just looked back at the thread, and actually there is only one poster who is adamant that ds wouldn't be admitted ('Beds are scarce, if you don't need oxygen you don't come in. Admitting for what might happen is decadent.') everyone else was really supportive and helpful! I think maybe the harshness of tone in that posters posts, at a time when I was very sleep deprived and worried, stuck with me!

There was a thread recently where a small child had fallen down the stairs and had a bump on their head. There were posters saying how their child had fallen from much higher and they didn't get seen. No workers in a&e will think you're being over cautious about checking out a head injury after a fall from height in a toddler!

I would not advise in these threads for the same reason.

However calling 111 is an appropriate response as they will respond if they feel they need to.

I called 111 two years ago and after listening to my symptoms, an ambulance arrived at my door in under 10 minutes.

I think some people have likely been lucky health wise and don't realise the implications of what they say and think you need to be physically / mentally incapable of doing anything in order to be truly unwell.

I nearly died from a heart condition I didn't even know I had (heart rate inexplicably gets stuck at over 160 beats per minute and can only be resolved with medical intervention, failing which risk of heart attack) because I didn't go to a&e due to worrying about wasting resources and being judged as a drama queen. I even somehow managed to drag myself into work, despite being unable to walk more than 10 meters without feeling like I was going to pass out (taxi door to door and staying put at my desk drafting documents and sending emails).

I couldn't get a gp appointment and after 3 days I saw a Private gp who initially thought panic attack until he did an ecg - I was in resus within 30 mins.

111 would not have helped in my situation.

Rusty I remember you posting on Xmas day. I wondered a few times after that if you were OK as it sounded so worrying - glad it was OK in the end.

Yanbu. I do think this is something MN needs to act on.

Part of the problem is that if someone needs to post here, they cannot judge which posts are giving good advice and which ones aren't.

I can’t advice anyone to use 111. I phoned them two years ago when my son was having worsening flu symptoms , I was patronised and called an over anxious mother ( the 111 worker was reprimanded after management played back the recording of the call) 15 mins after that call I was resustating my son in the footwell of the back seats of my car. 30 minutes after that he was on life support , he had meningitis B. He now has brain damage. I would never ring 111 ever again.

I disagree.

These threads have saved numerous lives over the years & continue to do so.

Just tell the idiots posting ‘It’s not an accident or an emergency’ or ‘the clue is in the name’ to STFU. I did it n that thread last night, I’ve done it on others previously and I’ll continue to do it. We are ADULTS we don’t need MNHQ to decide what we can & can’t post, beyond what’s already in place.

genehuntswife I’m so sorry to hear that 💐

I don’t suggest 111 either as I had a bad experience when I did and have heard many others too. Straight to a walk in or A&E, it’s what they’re there for.

(If people want to rant about that, they can, or they can put the equivalent amount of energy into getting the NHS mis management sorted out. But that’s all for another thread really)