To think free bus passes should be reformed

[Ll81]

Where I am the bus is so expensive it' usually has very few paying customers. services are being cut as the funding for the free bus pass has been cut and this was one given reason for raising fares and cutting services. Further compounding the problems.

To get to sign on from here is £16 and two busses. No help for anyone on low incomes or JSA.

In London tfl has over a billion pound debt, but still give out the freedom pass.

I've no problem with people that can't afford to run a car getting help with massively subsidised transport costs. For pensioners the calculation is already done for state pension so next to no means testing cost. Then people that need help could pay 95% less for the cost and people with money pay full cost. People often don't value "free" stuff.

The current system is killing off busses, espically in rural and semi rural areas.

London has a huge traffic, parking and air quality problem. There is an active push to get people using public transport rather than using cars. In that context, reduced price and free travel on public transport makes more sense.
I think the non-profit model operated by TFL is the correct approach. The problem isn't the approach taken in London but rather the fact that other areas don't have a similar set up.
Some people will get a Freedom Pass they don't need but it may well be that the admin costs of means testing would eat up any saving made by reducing the number of passes.

Re London Freedom Pass: it's funded by local authorities, not TfL giving out "free" travel. So TfL are actually gaining income from the scheme. However there is a cost to the LA so anyone getting a pass but not making good use of it is wasting their LA's money.

What annoys me is letting people over 60 have it (or the 60-65 version, can't remember what it's called) which means employed people commute to work for free!

n another note I wish secondary school kids didn't get free buses. Its a real struggle to get on the bus round here because of them.

Why do you have to get on a but at 8am and then again at 3pm when you know its full of school children? Plan your day round peak times and you wont have to see them.

I have the same problem. I can’t ‘plan my day around peak times’ because my employer expects me to be at work at 9am. So I have to travel at the same time as the incredibly rude and entitled schoolchildren. I’ve had many ‘discussions’ with them regarding them giving up the priority seats they’re sitting in so that an older person or a person who is less able to stand (not me!) can sit down. I’ve been called many nasty names because I just cannot stand by and watch the little gits take the piss.
I live in London and the bus is free. I firmly believe there should be school busses. And no free travel. Not until the little sods have learnt to behave them selves.

So TfL are actually gaining income from the scheme. However there is a cost to the LA so anyone getting a pass but not making good use of it is wasting their LA's money. I thought they only got subsidised on the basis of journeys made (which is why an elderly person has to scan their pass, not just wave it at the driver like all the other passes). Therefore no waste of money if their not using it.

What annoys me is letting people over 60 have it (or the 60-65 version, can't remember what it's called) which means employed people commute to work for free! It's easier to prove a positive than a negative. So it's easier to prove you're over state pension age than it is to prove you are not employed.

It's always been linked to women's state pension age, so when women's state pension age was 60, men from 60-65 were able to get a free pass for commuting. As can anyone who continues in employment after age 65.

In all London boroughs you can get an free Oyster card at 60 for trains (local, not national) tubes, buses and trams, but only valid from 9.30am, so could use it for work travel but only if starting late, don't think there's a later limit. At 65, or is it 66 now, you qualify for a Freedom Pass.

The problem isn't the approach taken in London but rather the fact that other areas don't have a similar set up

The problem (as are many others) is down to the Thatcher government, who privatised bus routes except in London, and prevented local authorities from running their own. That is changing now, I believe Manchester, for example, are developing their own publicly-owned service but the private companies will want to hang on to the profitable routes which could subsides other routes but that money goes into the pockets of the owners.

I'm pretty sure there are no time restrictions on the freedom pass for London tubes and buses. There are on some national rail and busses out side of London.

People do use them to travel into work on.

I mean the 60+ card no tube and london bus travel time restrictions

you can't use a Freedom Pass on a London bus before 09:30.

ifailed yes you can. There are some restrictions on some trains, but not buses.

That's interesting that you can use Over 60s Oyster before 9.30, I was sure my parents thought they couldn't, maybe getting confused with the Freedom Pass. I bet they'll have changed it time I get to 60 anyway!

I think it needs reforming too. We have a rural bus service. So on the one hand there are people in poverty, disabled and pensioners included, unable to access amenities. And unless physically capable and living close to a local stop it means a supermarket trip requires an expensive taxi.

On the otherhand some wealthier car owning pensioners catch the rural bus to connect with better services and take advantage of free day tripping.

I'd rather see the money going where it's needed.

It also is a massive piss take that London offers better and in some cases free transport than other major cities. Let alone that a child already living near amenities and walking distance of school gets this, when dc round here have to pay a fortune for an unreliable and limited service just to get to basic amenities. Even at fsm level it's only school transport costs you can get help with. Taking dc to a museum us expensive without a car.

I feel the same about all non means tested benefits, I'd rather the money went where it was needed. I just wouldn't trust the government to do it, we'd end up with things like pip limited to households under £25k and the saving used for tax breaks for the wealthy, and pensioner freebies/ reductions limited to breadline only.

viques Ah, thanks. It must have changed as I knew people who used them a while back and they had to wait 'til 9:30.

It was probably a vote winner to abolish the quite sensible time restrictions as London tubes and trains are v busy at peak time. But can't see anyone just reverting it back to what it was 10 or so years ago.

Bus rammed yesterday - me with pram and 8 month pregnant woman both standing. The rest of the bus filled with older passengers (complaining loudly about how full the bus was). So the only two people who had paid a fare that day were standing.

Yes, it rankles. Even half price fares would feel more equitable.

My local MP confided in me that “it’s not sustainable”.

They are very rude aren't they nottoobeautiful. They scream and shout and swear at each other from across the bus, refuse to move when you try to get off the bus, one screamed the other day "fucking bitch just hit me in the tits" about one of her friends.. They never give up their seat despite seeing me holding a baby. There really is no comparison to primary school children, I guess the pp who can't see that probably don't live in london. A bus stopped the other day and was refusing to move due to their behaviour. I've witnessed buses drive past that stop.. Says it's all really.

Dryheave I think people see elderly people as more entitle to the seat whether they pay or not. I noticed when I get on buses whether I was pregnant or holding a baby I am rarely offered a seat, very rarely. Elderly people are offered one every single time.

@Dancingfairy I stood to give my seat up. I think it’s absolutely right to do so.

My main point was that the bus simply wouldn’t have been so full if everyone had had to contribute to the cost of their journey. My parents have a bus pass and use the bus and just use it as a free hop-on-hop-off service. Sometimes they get on a bus just to see where it goes (and I know they are not in isolation doing this!)

And so it did seem a bit of a farce that the only people to have paid at that time were the people standing uncomfortably.

The Freedom Pass and local bus passes for older people are issued at state pension age (which is obviously receding).

dancing the rudeness isn't on, but I'm not sure why you think your dc catching the bus to school should take priority over other dc getting the bus to school. It's more than possible they have parents that also pay full bus fares at earlier times so they aren't paying less as a family than you are.

When I was on crutches a few years ago and couldn't drive it was definitely some pensioners that caused the biggest problems on the rural bus. Regardless of how full it was some would put their empty trolleys on a seat and take offence when you asked them to move it. Always barged to the front to get on first when the bus pulled up. Didn't give people chance to move from priority seats before rudely telling them to move etc. And one pair took faffing to extremes getting on at the same time, as I later discovered it was because the bus driver had refused their passes in the past because it was too early, and by fucking about for ages they could delay showing their passes till they were valid. Fuck the paying customers catching the only available bus to work after school drop off.

But that doesn't mean those pensioners are representative of all or a reason for reform anymore than your experience of rude teens is accurate.

What fresh hell is this, school kids not needing to take the bus? WTAF.

All local buses should be free for everyone. Long distance buses and trains should be far cheaper than they are now. Meanwhile taxes on cars, fuel and parking should go up several hundred per cent to pay for it. Much more fair than the current system which favours those rich /old/healthy enough to own and run a car whilst disadvantaging the young, old, disabled and poor.

As a uni student in London, I know that the 16+ oyster gets you 50% off tfl travel and the 18+ 30%. So it’s just free, just discounted

not free

School kids in London often don't need to. They are little fucks lots of the time, a kid stood in the way of the door to stop them from closing three times so he could continue his conversion and hold up the whole bus then he was only on for one stop.