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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask for your views on this article about Mumsnet:

79 replies

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 11:41

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jeremy-corbyn-has-a-new-enemy-mumsnet/

Mumsnet is fab and full of serious, interesting people talking about serious, interesting stuff. For an increasing number of them, that means gender recognition, self-defined gender and the implications (practical, social, political and philosophical) for women — by which I mean, people who were born female.

OP posts:
Bettyfood · 02/03/2018 05:34

Even with the gender politics shite going on, I'd still vote Labour as the lesser of two evils.

Mummyoflittledragon · 02/03/2018 05:56

Don’t you think that when you’re aligning yourself with some fairly reprehensible people it’s time to question your own views?

I think that question should actually be put to you. Only this week, Munroe Bergdorf, who is a highly politicised individual and has a shockingly poor understanding of british history, was offered an advisory position in labour. Or Andi Dier, who is allegedly a rapist of underaged girls. I don’t think either of these people represent lesbian and gays. And then of course, lily madigan, who appears to hate all natal women, allegedly is witch hunting in Labour Party and has blocked posters such as myself for asking legitimate questions and/or stating that we are happy to see transchildren are being accepted by their peers.

DannyLaRuesBestFrock · 02/03/2018 06:08

I am a staunch labour voter and love Jeremy but won't vote for them whilst this gender politics push for self ID is still up in the air.

This is also how I feel.

pedigreeRacer · 02/03/2018 06:28

@TheButterflyOfTheStorms
@InfiniteSheldon

What was misogynist? How do you know the sex of @tinkywinky2018?

As none of us do (I certainly didn't see s/he divulge their gender) then I think you've given spectacular examples of how the word 'misogynist' is being devalued by its overuse. Calling someone misogynist and then "refusing to engage" is no doubt one of the myriad of reasons for people being turned off modern feminism.

We all know you're going to ignore this point rather than engage because there's little you can say beyond realising your mistake.

@mummyoflittledragon

"I think that question should actually be put to you."

I've asked myself. I've really thought long and hard. Have you?

Munroe Bergdorf.

Isn't being "highly politicised" a good thing when working with a political party? I have no idea about her academic attainment in British History. When I read about her "all white people are racist" comments I thought it had parallels with the equally bonkers "there's no equal relationships in a patriarchy" MN thread.

Andi Dier - seems like a prize bell end. "Allegedly" means nothing though. S/he is currently innocent.

"blocked posters such as myself"

Not "myself". It's me. ME. ME ME. Use reflexive pronouns when the subject and object are the same. eg. I find myself clenching my fists when people erroneously use 'myself' because they think it's a little more 'clever-sounding'

A blocking feature sounds brilliant.

"who appears ... allegedly is ..."

Can you see the problems and why they may have ignored you?

I think the whole debate comes down to 2 issues.

  1. Gender - nature or nurture

  2. should we fear men / ex-men?

My answers are

  1. A combination but innate behavioural, intelligence and other 'brain' (my minds gone blank, I can't think of the word I'm after) differences in the sexes are real and significant.

  2. No because SINOMALT (statistically insignificant numbers of men are like that)

InfiniteSheldon · 02/03/2018 06:35

You are a troll, either misogynistic or pretending to be for kicks jog on

pedigreeRacer · 02/03/2018 06:38

@InfiniteSheldon

Not being anti-trans does not make you a misogynist.

Calling someone of unknown sex a "little poster" or unintelligent does not make you misogynist.

As I said, you're weakening the term for legitimate uses.

Beanteam · 02/03/2018 06:41

I feel so proud to be a woman ........and I have never felt like this before

I could swear the women I come across eg shop assistant, GP, airport staff etc etc are more feisty than they used to be and brook no nonsense. They seem more confident somehow. Perhaps they've been like this for ages but I only notice it now.

InfiniteSheldon · 02/03/2018 06:42

Assuming those defending women's right are anti trans is misogynistic,
Using derogatory (to women) phrasing to silence other posters (mainly women) is misogynistic
Assuming posters are women is not misogynistic it's the opposite

Igneococcus · 02/03/2018 06:44

Please, if you take entire passages word for word from other people, like you did with the bit about arse-holes, give them credit for it. Or did I miss where you say it's from Tim Minchin?
Tim Minchin occassional address

Beanteam · 02/03/2018 06:45

I am not anti-trans, it must be seriously mentally debilitating to be in the 'wrong' body for your mind.
I am happy to use the correct pronoun and call people women who were formally men, if that is what they prefer. But to say someone with a penis is a woman is just not true and the law cannot make it true.

Mummyoflittledragon · 02/03/2018 06:46

pedigree
Thank you for the grammar lesson. 🙄 I have ME as in the disease. It causes brain fog and occasionally due to this I get things a little wrong as I rewrite and don’t properly correct. My original sentence would actually have been correct. Unfortunately though I don’t spot my mistakes like others with sharper brains. But hey just patronise me because you have flimsy arguments.

Pickleshickles · 02/03/2018 06:48

But pedigree, woman are oppressed because of their sex, not their gender.

I haven't had a pay rise since I started bearing children. Wearing a dress didn't do that but the possession of a womb did.

I have been date rape drugged before. That wasn't done because I wore lipstick but because a bloke with a penis wanted to rape me.

Gender is bullshit. My sex oppresses me, not my accoutrements.

That's why a lot of people think the identity politics genderists are doing harm.

bluebells1 · 02/03/2018 07:15

The article, for those like pedigreeRacer who haven't bothered to read.

I have learned a lot since writing about gender laws here last week.

I’ve learned that if you ever want to flood your Twitter timeline with people arguing about something, writing an article about gender laws is a good way to do it.

I’ve learned that some people do indeed get very angry about this stuff, though not always the people you’d expect. The prickliest communication I had wasn’t from a Trans-Rights Activist or a Radical Feminist. It was from a parliamentarian. And overall, I’ve had nothing like the venom I’ve seen directed at other hacks who’ve written about this in similar ways; for some reason or another, people are less horrible to me about this than they are to Janice Turner and Helen Lewis.

I’ve learned that there are some brilliant, learned and compassionate people out there, who come at this from all angles. One (purely anecdotal) observation is that the diversity of opinions within the trans-gender population is not remotely reflected in the bit of this conversation most visible at Westminster. The trans community’s opinions are not as homogenous as some reporting and discussion suggest. So here’s a tip for hacks covering this: don’t just book Paris Lees or talk about Lilly Madigan. Ask Kristina Harrison what she thinks. Or Tara Hewitt. Or lots of other people. The same goes for the ‘radical’ feminist side of this: there’s more to it than Germaine Greer. (Though for some media outlets that really should know better, having any voice from that side of the conversation at all would be an improvement.)

Which brings me to the most politically pressing thing I’ve learned. Mumsnet is angry. And here’s something I already knew. When Mumsnet is angry, someone in politics is in trouble.

Now, I don’t know how many Spectator readers are also Mumsnetters, but those who aren’t might just assume that site is all middle-class mummies twittering about yoga and little Sophie’s Mandarin lessons. If so, they’d be wrong.

Mumsnet is fab and full of serious, interesting people talking about serious, interesting stuff. For an increasing number of them, that means gender recognition, self-defined gender and the implications (practical, social, political and philosophical) for women — by which I mean, people who were born female.

And again, purely anecdotally, it seems to me that a lot of those people are seriously unhappy. They think that the sort of self-declared gender laws that may end up in force in the UK, as they have in other countries, will do nothing less than render the word ‘woman’ meaningless, with all that that implies for equality and freedom and, well, civilisation as we know it.

To paraphrase some common sentiments: you can’t become a woman, because womanhood is based on biology, socialisation and experience that only those born to it can know; if the law dictates that a man can attain womanhood simply by signing a few forms, womanhood becomes empty and women lose any standing in society. Indeed, the very notion of objective truth goes out the window. To quote the formidably eloquent Kristina Harrison, accepting that people can define their own gender without external check or scrutiny is ‘to assert that subjective and unverifiable will subordinate objective biological sex as the pre-eminent cultural-legal category.’

This is an aspect of the gender debate I avoided last week because a) it’s endlessly complicated; b) I’m wary of getting into questions about experiences and feelings that I haven’t had and can’t share; and c) I’d end up revealing that I never really understood the post-modernism texts I pretended to read for my degree.

So I’m going to stick to the mundane politics of Mumsnet’s epistemological essentialism. Some important voters are angry, and a lot of them are angry at Labour.

Partly that’s because some of them are Labour people and they feel let down by their own party. For all the caricature of Corbynistas being twenty-something men angry at their middle-class parents, much of the Corbyn surge in Labour membership has come from older women, some of whom have rejoined the party after years away. Labour women made Corbyn; could they yet unmake him?

Partly it’s because Labour is the party pushing hardest towards self-ID in gender. Jeremy Corbyn talks like a man who wants rules that allow someone to define their own gender. That would mean that the party’s all-women shortlists (AWS) would be open to someone who was born male, retained male physiology and had undertaken no action to change that physiology, and was legally recognised as male. Such a person would be eligible for an AWS purely because that person declared themself to a be a woman.

This, for now, is the hottest political flashpoint in the gender debate. And if you read Mumsnet, it could be the spark that ignites a full-blown political firestorm, where women abandon Labour in droves. Mumsnetters are girding for war and have armed themselves with a hashtag: #labourlosingwomen, a banner that also covers concerns about the Corbyn leadership’s somewhat macho attitude to the treatment of Labour women who don’t worship St Jeremy and the way allegations of sexual wrongdoing by some Corbyn allies have been handled.

Does this matter? Isn’t this just some online grumbling in an angry echo-chamber? Maybe, but some Mumsnetters scent blood. YouGov’s regular tracker on 28-29 January put Labour on 42 percent overall and 46 percent among women. The latest tracker, conducted last week, has Labour on 39 percent overall, 4 points behind the Tories, and down to 40 percent among women.

Has Mr Corbyn really lost 6 points of female support (close to 1 million votes) in a few days? Almost certainly not; these are just two polls and nowhere near enough to call this a trend. But could Labour’s stance on trans and gender issues alienate women in significant numbers? I think it cannot be ruled out.

Sometimes in politics, perception matters more than reality. Narratives matter, and the narrative of ‘women vs Corbyn’ could quite easily take hold, and become self-fulfilling. The gender wars are currently a niche interest, but if this debate goes mainstream (and Britain’s slide into identity politics and culture war suggests it will), there is surely at least the potential for a lot of women to start thinking very hard about the implications of Labour’s approach.

In short, all the necessary components are in place for a real political grudge-match, the sort of no-holds-barred ultimate fighting cage-match that aficionados of political combat will tell their grandchildren about.

Ladies and gentlemen, take your seats, grab your popcorn and let’s get ready to rumble. Because it’s showtime: Corbynistas vs Mumsnetters. May the best women win.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 02/03/2018 07:34

pedigreeRacer seems to have a thing abut Women's Studies. I wonder why? It's not even a subject anymore and hasn't been for 20+ years. Hmm. Very puzzling.

pedigreeRacer · 02/03/2018 07:54

@Igneococcus - I italicised it. Forgot to mention the author but didn't mean to pass it off as my own. Should we use MLA or APA (they're the two I know).

Well done for spotting that one. Star for you.

@mummyofadragon

"But hey just patronise me because you have flimsy arguments."

Where's the flimsy arguement? I addressed each of your questions and tried to summarise my opinion.

@Pickleshickles

Why do you say we're oppressed because of sex not gender?

"I haven't had a pay rise since I started bearing children."

Did you take time off work? Do you work full time hours? How is the pay structure? Have you been focusing on your career or your children? Can you prove competencies for promotion and pay rises and have you gone for promotion?

Posession of a womb doesn't harm women at university or when they leave and get graduate jobs. They beat men by any financial or academic marker you use. The difference appears when they choose to use their womb.

I don't feel oppressed; least not because of my sex. Is my "experience as a woman" as valid as yours?

Niceandwarmandhot · 02/03/2018 08:04

Oh please, pedigree.

Have you ever been a female junior working in a big city bank or law firm?

trainees being chosen for seats or qualification because older men fancy them was rife. I've even seen a partner come in and debate with another partner which trainee to take because X is better but the client likes pretty blondes so how about Y instead.

I've seen young trainees and secretaries perved over by older men and heard umpteen million sexist jokes (there was one occasion where a female banker got stuck in a lift for an hour and all the blokes were joking about how it still wouldn't have stopped her knitting).

And you think it doesn't affect women right off the starting blocks? How many fucking times do you think that's happened to male trainees? how many female partners do you think there are in those type of big industries?

What a stupid, stupid comment!

NaiceBiscuits · 02/03/2018 08:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pickleshickles · 02/03/2018 08:10

Of course I had time off, giving birth and breastfeeding isn't something I can squeeze in on my lunch break.

And of course I have shown competence and understand the pay structure. The simple truth of the matter is that I am in a male dominated industry and the men who cannot breastfeed and give birth and be pregnant get ahead of me. They still get the benefits of a family but the disadvantages fall to the woman. Because of her sex. You know this, you're just trolling now.

Regarding university, the playing field is more level because the majority of students aren't having children. Again it is the reproductive capabilities of woman which oppress which is a trait of their sex. Not gender. You also know this.

Whatever your privilege has been don't presume all woman have had the same. I'm fortunate that I'm paid enough to make work worthwhile even with children and I'm sensible enough to see that privilege.

Niceandwarmandhot · 02/03/2018 08:13

I've also had more than one colleague who suffered incredibly badly with period pains. For one unlucky trainee, it counted against her on qualification - they felt she'd had too many days off.

The other had to sit with hot water bottles pressed to her stomach and back 2 days every month. Male partners would inevitably wander in and ask why.

You can't possibly begin to imagine this if you've never had a fucking uterus!!! These are the sorts of things that being born a woman puts you up against from the outset.

JoyTheUnicorn · 02/03/2018 08:21

"When they choose to use their womb"

Which is a biological urge, seeing as reproduction is one of the main purposes of all life on Earth.

My lived experience as a women is different to the lived experience of a transwoman not because of how I feel in my head, but because of the inconvenient biology stuff such as periods, pregnancy, health problems as a result of periods, pregnancy etc. The oppression of women is because of their biology and socialisation.
The trans agenda is blatantly mysoginistic, from the assumption that a transwoman's experience of a woman is the same as a born woman's (which is frankly bizarre), to the way that Jeremy Corbyn is ignoring the concerns of women and listening intently to the likes of Lily Madigan, Munroe Bergdorf and a collection of handmaidens who have thoroughly bought into trans ideology without thinking of where it will take women (biological women) collectively as a group, with their rights gradually eroded.
I don't have a problem with trans people, I'm not transphobic, however, I have a massive problem with the men's rights activists who are currently trying to put everyone into neat little gender boxes, because it will serve the patriarchy better than accepting that gender is damaging bullshit, particularly to women.

TheBiscuitOfDestiny · 02/03/2018 08:34

@pedigreeRacer

"2) No because SINOMALT (statistically insignificant numbers of men are like that)"

In that case, why they need for TIM's to access women's spaces?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 02/03/2018 08:35

If women didn't choose to use their wombs then men would not be able to have children. Funnily enough, becoming a father rarely has a negative effect on a man's career. I wonder why that is. Yet another puzzle.

Niceandwarmandhot · 02/03/2018 09:35

The main reason transwomen can never know what it's like to be a woman is mostly because of men, and how women are treated by men. Most straight men are never going to treat a transwomen that way. Sure, they'll (hopefully) make sure a transwomen is treated with exactly the same amount of respect and courtesy and freedom to dress and act exactly as they wish.

But they're not going to lech over them, or hit on them, or overlook them for promotion "because they just had a year off and they'll probably want another kid soon", or really see them in the exact same light. And that means that a lot of the problems women face simply aren't there for transwomen.

But rather than face up to that, and address it, it's easier for the shouty activists to blame women and to demand that we change what being a woman means - in an effort to change the minds of men!

Of course, transwomen have a huge number of struggles and issues that women haven't experienced, and for a lot of people that must be very difficult. I would support anyone's right to dress and express themselves however they like, providing they do no harm to others, and would be very angry if I heard a transwoman friend or colleague described or treated negatively.

But that freedom can't come at the expense of women's rights. And that's what a lot of the desperate to be right-on labour crap is threatening to do. Parties should be looking for a way to support transpeople without throwing women under the bus (because it is always women).

I'd like corbyn to realise his only life experience is being the rabid alternative politician and to fuck off back to his allotment and his jam. But in the absence of that, I'd like him to read some of these threads to see how women feel his woolly ideals will hurt them.

AltogetherAndrews · 02/03/2018 09:38

Um, can we have a look at the idea that statistically insignificant numbers of men commit sexual attacks? In a society where most women state they have been sexually assaulted, how can you possibly think that this is true? Most sexual assaults are never reported to the police, let alone make it to conviction, so quoting conviction rates doesn’t help here.
Some helpful statistics: 11% of females report that they were sexually assaulted as children. It is estimated that 85000 women are raped in England and Wales each year, that’s 11 rapes every hour. Are we seriously to believe that a statistically insignificant number of men are committing all these assaults?

Firesuit · 02/03/2018 10:07

I think by "statistically insignificant" a previous poster meant a "tiny minority", or some such phrase.

Having just googled to remind myself, "statistically insignificant" is a technical phrase that would be incorrect to use in this context.