To think a woman isn't automatically lying if a rape trial verdict is not guilty?

[lilly0]

The courts in this country prosecute only on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt. In rape cases the forensic evidence might not be there and it turns into a case of he said she said.
Every other crime we don't seem to automatically call victims liars if the accused is found not guilty. Why is rape so different?

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

On reflection, I think what I actually mean is that in a situation of reasonable belief in consent but where consent was not actually present, the accused is not a rapist but the victim was raped by them. Which is obviously a logical paradox and one of the big problems of prosecution, one that I'm struggling to think of examples of how it could happen in other crimes. The problem is we act like these are all objective terms but they aren't - what is 'reasonable', what is 'rape' and what is 'evidence' are all subjective, societally determined things that would have been determined differently in the past, and will be again in the future.

[Blink66]

Pengggwn

Other than just making assertions, do you have anything to back this up?

How does the concept of "Mens Rea" which is a fundamental foundation of criminal law apply if the accused beliefs are not required to be examined?

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

Equally when someone is found innocent of rape it does not mean consent was given (i.e. the women is lying), but it is indeed fact that rape did not occur.

So what about cases where someone was acquitted but then subsequent DNA evidence showed they had in fact committed the crime (or vice versa)? You're thus arguing that a rape hadn't occurred until that evidence emerged, which is nonsense. You're insisting that the legal system is infallible and I fundamentally disagree.

[NotAnotherEmma]

Statistically speaking if you believe the rape victim you're more likely to be correct then if you believe the rapist. The percentage of people who lie about being raped to the police isn't any higher then people falsely reporting other crimes like theft, burglary, assault etc.

[Blink66]

LisaSimpsonsbff

I think you are maintaining the word rape in sympathy for awful circumstances - there isn't a paradox.

in a situation of reasonable belief in consent but where consent was not actually present, the accused is not a rapist and the victim not was raped by them. However, they had sex despite her lack of consent. Not good, could be sinister, might be poor communication, but not rape and not a crime.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

If a reasonable belief in consent exists, there may be a misunderstanding but there is no rape.

Someone who was forced to have sex against their will was raped, no matter what was going through the mind of the other person. That's like saying that if someone is acquitted of a crime on grounds of diminished responsibility, their victim is no longer a victim of a crime.

[Firesuit]

Someone who was forced to have sex against their will was raped, no matter what was going through the mind of the other person

No, rape is a legal term, and that's not what it means.

[Blink66]

Pengggwn

That's exactly right - the accuser cannot know - and so can not say they have been raped.

Neither can the jury know - but the crime is determined to have happened or not by what the jury determine - not the accuser. Whatever happened has no bearing, only what the jury believe happened - including both parties beliefs. That determines whether rape occurred or not.

You seem to be saying the crime occurring is independent of legal system and juries determination - and I am saying it is only the legal system that determines it. I think it's clear that crimes such as rape are a pure legal construct, so it's pointless discussing it further.

I'd suggest you try libelling someone who has been found innocent of rape and I suspect you might find out very quickly that your belief is wrong.

[Blink66]

LisaSimpsonsbff

Your exactly right. If someone is keen and an accused is tried for murder, but has diminished responsibility then the victim was not murdered. It is impossible to be convicted of muder, but instead may be convicted of manslaughter.

The victim is still dead - but no murder took place.

No different to non-consensual sex took place - but no rape took place.

[PatriarchyPersonified]

Strawberriesaregood

Which is why the test is that the man had an honest belief of consent, that a reasonable person would have had in the same circumstances.

If he did, then it's not rape.

[Firesuit]

Someone who was forced to have sex against their will was raped, no matter what was going through the mind of the other person.

You can say that as many times as you like, but all you are doing is saying that you personally intend to use the word rape to mean something different to what the law says it means.

[Firesuit]

According to you, if a 45 year old man has sex with a toddler, but genuinely believes the toddler consents and wants it, by definition that is not rape.

Below the age of 13 legal consent is not possible, therefore it's always rape.

[Blink66]

strawberriesaregood

It doesn't matter whether "he believes", it matters whether a "reasonable person could reasonably believe". Against - what both parties actually believed is not the point.

[CaledonianQueen]

*SENSITIVE TRIGGER WARNING**

I remember the case of a sixteen-year-old girl in 2002 who was brutally raped by a fourteen-year-old boy. At court, she was torn apart and told she 'wanted' to be raped because she was wearing a thong underneath her jeans. They made her show her underwear in court. The trauma that cross-examination put that poor girl through caused her to commit suicide. Her rapist was eventually found guilty (I would not be surprised if this only happened due to the poor girl's suicide) and jailed. New legislation was passed in Scotland because of this case to stop rapists being able to cross-examine their victims. However, having been cross-examined myself as a witness to an assault, I honestly don't think that legislation goes far enough to protect innocent victims. I totally believe that rapists and paedophiles frequently are found not guilty.

My Aunt worked as a procurator fiscal and has confirmed that the majority of sexual abusers/ paedophiles/ rapists get off with the crime. They are skilled manipulative liars, often charming, many of them seen as a pillar of the community. Up against a tiny girl or boy who was relentlessly abused and passed around the high flying paedophile friends of their abuser. The children have no chance. Often it doesn't even get to court as the children are too traumatised to face cross-examination. My Aunt was heartbroken in the case of two tiny children, (where they were already a high risk for suicide), who because of the psychological trauma of the abuse, the prosecution could not take the evil b**tards to court as psychologically they were too vulnerable. I pray that they made it to adulthood and can get up and give evidence against the evil ring of paedophiles who abused them. Unfortunately I fear they won't as they had each made several attempts to commit suicide and were not even ten years old.

A friend's tiny daughter was sexually abused by her stepfather. The court found him innocent, as he was a clever manipulator who played himself the victim and called my friend's daughter a manipulator and liar. That little girl was absolutely devastated. The police, Doctors, everyone involved in preparing the case, said that they knew he was guilty, they were so angry! But a manipulative narcissistic sociopath is a lot more believable than a terrified and traumatised little girl. That little girl is very ill now, she can't walk, is wheelchair bound and this was triggered by the abuse and psychological trauma. I am severely disabled and unable to walk because of a neurological condition. As part of my examination, I was asked if I had been sexually abused or raped, as they often find that woman who presented suddenly with severe neurological symptoms (like I had presented), were previously victims of sexual abuse.

I know of just one evil manipulative liar, who has destroyed the innocence and childhood of an innocent beautiful child, yet they found him not guilty and he is now free to walk the streets abusing other little girls. There will be so MANY MORE victims of abuse who have been called liars and disbelieved! There will be so MANY MORE abusers who get away with their evil crime and go onto abuse other children or women! I have ZERO faith in the justice system over here!

Those that are found guilty are given such pathetically low sentences that I am not surprised at my Aunt (the procurator fiscal), who told me that paedophile rings are full of high up judges, headteachers, celebrities, ministers and politicians. My Aunt was so disgusted that she changed career and now supports victims of abuse. She never named any names, just shared an outline of the case but I bet she was not surprised in the least, by the Jimmy Saville scandal.

Perhaps the vast evidence that is needed to even take a rape or abuse case to court is occasionally wrong (doubtful). Perhaps a few men really are innocent. However given the number of my friends who have been advised after reporting rape or childhood sexual abuse that there is just not enough evidence to take it to court, I really struggle to believe this. Apparently abused children need to keep diaries detailing their abuse. They need to confide in an adult or friend. They need to acquire proof so that they can one day take their abusers to court. Unfortunately, terrified children are told not to tell anyone, they are terrified of their abusers and often too ashamed to tell anyone. The only hope for the prosecution of the abuser is that another victim will come forward and report the abuser.

Similarly, with rape, so many women feel so violated and dirty that the instinct is to scrub themselves raw, removing any evidence of the rapist. I applaud these new clinics that allow women to have evidence collected, allowing the victims to recover from the psychological trauma first before deciding if they want to proceed with prosecution.
I just pray that it will make a difference and more rapists will be prosecuted and jailed.