The Bulger killers: was justice done?

[WannaBeWonderWoman]

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

SusanBunch they weren't children they were little monsters. What child would even think about doing what they did to James. They were sick adults in a child's body

I’m shocked to see pp’s complaining about them being tried in an Adult Court.

It’s not just us, it’s the European court of human rights as well. It was decided that the boys didn’t have a fair trial. In this case it didn’t have an impact on the conviction - but it could have done - can you imagine their convictions had ended up being overturned because our legal system couldn’t properly deal with youth offenders? That would be an even worse sorry mess than the absolute clusterfuck which has ensued as it is.

You need to go back about 200 years in time and then you will find plenty of people who agree with your views of killing 10 year olds
According to a YouGov poll of 2000 adults, more Brexiteers want to bring back capital punishment than want blue passports.

Monger that poll just shows how many people would agree with me. I've always thought capital punishment should be brought back. Britain is too soft on criminals, too soft on everything actually

In the USA a 13 year old murdererd a toddler. This was in 1994. He is still in jail now. Eric Smith is his name.

According to a YouGov poll of 2000 adults, more Brexiteers want to bring back capital punishment than want blue passports.

Yes, maybe so, but for ADULTS rights? User was on about executing children barely old enough to have legal responsibility, as are many others on this thread.

In the USA a 13 year old murdererd a toddler. This was in 1994. He is still in jail now. Eric Smith is his name.

You do realise that Eric Smith was essentially given the same sentence as Venables and Thompson?

Smith was given 9-life. His parole was turned down as he was deemed to still be a danger to society.
Venables and Thompson were detained at Her Majesty's Pleasure with a minimum of 8. The only difference is the parole board decisions.

If Smith had been decreed not a danger he would have been released as Venables and Thompson were.

they weren't children they were little monsters. What child would even think about doing what they did to James. They were sick adults in a child's body

So you think it should be okay to execute 10 year old children? By what means? Hanging? Lethal injection?

Why does it matter if they're children? They should still be executed. Children and adults are both children. If they did what they did to James to my child, I would hunt them down until I found them. Surely somebody knows their identities. I don't understand how his mother didn't want any further action taken against them

Yes I do susan. Ones that do what they did I think should never see the light of day again.

So you think it should be okay to execute 10 year old children? By what means? Hanging? Lethal injection?

I know, why don’t we go the whole hog and wheel in old sparky. A firing squad?

The whole capital punishment debate aside I can’t believe that people honestly think it’s OK to administer the death penalty to 11 year olds! The thought makes me as sick as the original crime they committed! Ok I am sympathetic to the view that the sentence was short but executing 11 year olds?!

Why does it matter if they're children? They should still be executed. Children and adults are both children. If they did what they did to James to my child, I would hunt them down until I found them. Surely somebody knows their identities. I don't understand how his mother didn't want any further action taken against them

Oh what ARE you on about, you're talking such a pile of old shite it's quite impressive.

They have no right to life after what they did baked

@SusanBunch I don't think many posters are wanting the death penalty for 10 year olds. A couple have said that, yes, there are always a couple of hotheads on threads like this. There are more who would have liked a more punitive sentence than those two boys got.

It's a moot point anyway, it was 25 years ago now, so they can hardly be sentence for the crime again now.

The issue with the court thing is that the justice system works on fixed principles. You can't start making changes because it suits the mood of the day otherwise where does that end?

If it's known that the accused is guilty then is it ok to allow someone who knows them on the jury?

If it's known that they are guilty then should we not bother giving them legal representation?

Of course not. When you walk into a courtroom you are entitled to a presumption of innocence, legal representation, a jury of your peers (in jury cases) who have no pre-existing presumptions about you and evidence has to be corroborated and the likes. You are also entitled to be tried in the setting that is appropriate to you (adult or child) and in a way that you understand what is going on (appropriate adults etc).

If you start chipping away at any of those pieces because a crime is heinous, or fits a current political narrative, then you damage the entire system.

Mary Bell didn't go on trial alone. Norma Bell was found not guilty in their trial. The court (not the police, the court) did not know before they walked in that both of those boys would be found guilty.

I don't understand how his mother didn't want any further action taken against them

Are you dense? She has campaigned for 25 years for harsher punishments for them. If you're asking why has she not arranged for their murder, maybe she doesn't want to harm her other kids by being sent to prison for life.

You have to be a special kind of thick/barbaric to think that the legal system should put children to death.

I honestly don't understand people who think they committed such a horrific crime (they did, I'm not disputing their crime being heinous) that they should be tortured, killed etc themselves

Killing a child is disgusting. Regardless of how disgusting you consider that child.

What should we then do with the person who murders T or V? Or if someone had murdered them when they were 10? Do we pat them on the back and say murder is justified? Do we then need to rehabilitate that person and help them come to terms with murdering children? Or do we murder them for having murdered ten year old boys?

Where does it end?

Normally I'd say execute them the same way as they have killed their victim but I'd get a lot of stick for saying that.

You would because it means you're just as sick as the killers themselves to be honest.

Do you not think that if capital punishment was brought back then there will be a decrease in crimes?

Err no because study upon study upon study has shown that there is NO deterrent effect of capital punishment. If there was, the US would be a murder-free zone, yet it isn't. How is that then?

You have to be a special kind of thick/barbaric to think that the legal system should put children to death

We obviously have different views... what thick/barbaric person would think those kids , now adults should of lived? Your obviously the sympathetic type.

I know, why don’t we go the whole hog and wheel in old sparky.
Let's go all the way and use the gas chamber(!)

I can't believe that people are seriously saying that we should kill ten year old children.
I would hunt them down until I found them
That's one of the reasons for which we don't use the death penalty anymore. A conviction should never be made on an 'eye for an eye' basis. I'm sure that if my child was murdered, I would want to torture the killer, which is precisely why I shouldn't be allowed to make the decision on their punishment.

There was a great post on a thread about two years ago by @JaWellNoFine :

"I completely understand why people want the death penalty. I know a lot of people who have been murdered or raped. South Africa does not have the death penalty.

Why? Because people all over the world are well aware of miscarriages of justice, of innocent people being murdered in the name of justice.

But there is of course the even bigger issue. Government sanctioned murder is not a good thing. It is the thin edge. Where does it end? In the UK we have a very easy life. We vote red or blue and nothing really changes. But the truth is things can change and the last thing you want is a corrupt government and state mandated murder. No no no."

“ I would hunt them down until I found them. Surely somebody knows their identities. I don't understand how his mother didn't want any further action taken against them”

So, as you point out, neither Denise Fergus nor Ralph Bulger have tracked down Thompson or Venables and killed them, or tried to.
You think you would. Yet they didn’t, and it actually happened to them.

You wouldn’t either. You’re just naive and emotionally immature and thinking you would is the bravado default. Grow up

They have no right to life after what they did baked

Well they do, quite clearly, as we all do, have the fundamental right to life.

Jeez I was an adult when this crime happened and I remember it extremely well and as I have become a parent and my kids have gone past the age James was and now past the age the killers were the whole thing horrifies me more and more. I get the hatred and the visceral reaction as much as everyone else. I agree that the sentences seemed very lenient and I feel so much for James’s parents and accept they’ve got the right to feel very hard done by. But what I don’t understand is over emotive statements by people with no involvement whatsoever in the case about things like criminalising their parents, removing their human rights, executing them etc. Madness.

Do you not think that if capital punishment was brought back then there will be a decrease in crimes?
In the US, capital punishment is allowed by 31 states, the federal government and the military. Their homicide rate is 4.88/100 000. In the UK it's 0.92/100 000, and even lower in countries like Norway and Sweden.