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Original poster

The Bulger killers: was justice done?

999 replies

WannaBeWonderWoman · 08/02/2018 00:07

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

OP posts:
Eggzandbacon · 08/02/2018 19:00

I'd still like to know if a youth court would give a more lenient sentence or would it just be the same in a more appropriate format of trial?

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:02

Eggz the sentence for murder is fixed by law. Life imprisonment/detention at her majesty’s pleasure for young offenders.

chipvinegar · 08/02/2018 19:05

I think they said that the psychiatrists were pushed into yes/no answers... by the court

Rather than being able to explain anything about how the children were handling a very adult process.

They weren't given any treatment until after the trial as far as I understand for them to really have been examined in depth?

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:06

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LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:08

But these two being tried at an adult court does not make me feel uncomfortable at all.

It’s not about whether it makes you feel comfortable or not. It’s about the fact that if accused people don’t receive a fair trial (which is everyone’s right and the cornerstone of the criminal justice system) then it can lead to guilty people getting off the hook. _Would people really rather risk that happening to child offenders than taking the time and effort to put together a legal process for dealing with them that’s fit for purpose?

"A fair trial, everyone's right"; like trying the parents for a crime they did not commit? "Cornerstone of criminal justice system leading to guilty people getting off the hook"; like trying the parents for the children's crime? Letting these evil children off the hook? "Taking the time and effort to put together a legal process for dealing with them that’s fit for purpose?" Like trying the non guilty parents for a crime the children committed? That type of "fair, fit for purpose legal system"? Where we pass the buck to others for the most thin of reasons?

Some people are so short sighted.

Snort Biscuit

(Paraphrased but too funny)
but the lynch mob mentality types need to look at themselves

Oh the irony and hypocrisy...

Eggzandbacon · 08/02/2018 19:09

Thanks beans just a few people have mentioned they thought a youth court would give a more lenient sentence. I didn't think that sounded correct.

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:13

ladyinparis can I ask Just what exactly your problem is with me? I didn’t suggest parents should be tried for the acts of children? I was quoting someone else who had said that. It’s a completely ludicrous idea and totally unworkable.

LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:19

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Oblomov18 · 08/02/2018 19:22

The original court case was 25 years ago. T&V were 10, now 35. 8 years held, then released.
The monetary cost was High. People dealing with the 2 boys said they were treated with 'kid gloves' because it was such a high profile case.
Public expenditure.
V exposed his identity, so a new identity was provided. He was imprisoned again. He has just had another court case, for 40 months.

The cost is huge. And it continues.

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:25

My mistake

Must be, because if you read my posts again I have in no way suggested that the parents should be held responsible for the crime of their children?

If this is you being polite, I’d hate to see you being rude.

lalalalyra · 08/02/2018 19:27

@ladyinParis - it was Tillytrotter who suggested parents be tried for their child's crime. Not @bakedbeans47 - so no idea why you are being so rude to beans?

chipvinegar · 08/02/2018 19:27

Actually, did the parents commit the crime?

Obviously we know T and V did the act so I don't mean it literally.

But would the parents input into either boys life having been different have changed the outcome?

Or was it just a tragic friendship which created the conditions for such a crime and even if they'd had a decent homelife (which to be fair Venables doesn't sound like his was any harder than a lot of children) would they still have been doomed/destined to commit a horrific crime due to the influence of that friendship on each other?

LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:34

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BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:35

Thanks lala

In any event I apologise for the “fucking idiotic” comment. It wasn’t constructive. The reason I don’t think trying the parents for the children’s crimes is in any way viable is because (a) they haven’t either committed the criminal act or have the mental intent to commit the crime and (b) parents, whilst responsible for children’s upbringing, aren’t puppeteers, and there can be factors such as special needs at play.

LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:37

You would hate to see me being rude. But i'm not rude. "fucking idiocy" is. Do you really need to carry this on? I read it wrong and genuinely apologised. And also explained my issue with beans.

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:38

ladyinparis I have to say I also got you mixed up as I hadn’t read your whole post but took it given what you had directed towards me that you had supported the trying the parents for the children’s crime, and was trying to explain the “fucking idiotic” comment further, which, I concede, I should have done at the outset.

LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:39

Ps beans that last reply was to lalala, not you Flowers

lalalalyra · 08/02/2018 19:44

Erm, I didn't carry it on. My post pointing out it wasn't beans was before you apologised/explained.

Whatever. This is how threads get derailed. I really wish MN had a better quote function. Would make life much easier.

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:46

Or was it just a tragic friendship which created the conditions for such a crime and even if they'd had a decent homelife (which to be fair Venables doesn't sound like his was any harder than a lot of children) would they still have been doomed/destined to commit a horrific crime due to the influence of that friendship on each other?

I often wonder that in cases such as these 2, Brady and Hindley, the Wests. Would any of them have partnered up with someone else to commit their crimes or has there been something about the personalities in these specific partnerships which led to the offending?

Lizzie48 · 08/02/2018 19:47

At the end of the day, we'll never know. We know that some friendships between children are toxic, they're simply a bad influence on each other and egg each other on. They do things that they would never do without their 'partner in crime'.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the boys were playing truant, why weren't they in school? So the parents didn't commit the crime, but if they had taken more responsibility, maybe the boys wouldn't have been running wild like they were??

lalalalyra · 08/02/2018 19:48

Actually, did the parents commit the crime?

Obviously we know T and V did the act so I don't mean it literally.

But would the parents input into either boys life having been different have changed the outcome?

The only even-slight judge of that would surely be that neither of their siblings have (as far as we know) committed any heinous crimes.

If you get into the realms of them having different parents and would that have changed their outcomes then you'd be adding other differences - schools, homes, possibly extended families etc. You could never even start to balance that out.

Rebeccaslicker · 08/02/2018 19:48

Baked - I have often wondered that too. How do people like Brady and Hindley find each other? Just how far under someone's spell/influence do you have to be to go along with a suggestion like, "let's kill someone"? Shock

LadyInParis · 08/02/2018 19:49

Ah I see now it all makes sense haha- we were arguing with each other for the same thing! (Again, my mistake, I am truly sorry)

And no WAY did I mean to agree about the parents being tried; in that case if I did come across like that, then I don't blame you for calling me fucking idiotic haha!! I'd say worse! In fact I will...

Whoever DID say it, is a TWAT. And I will swear and be insulting for that idiot haha!!

Rebeccaslicker · 08/02/2018 19:50

Lizzie - I read a quote from Denise Fergus saying exactly that: I knew where my child was; why didn't their parents?

Mind you, the journalist who got to know Ann Thompson quoted her as saying angrily and repeatedly, "if that child had been wearing reins, none of this would have happened", which is quite the twisted way of thinking!

BakedBeans47 · 08/02/2018 19:51

Thanks ladyinparis.

It wasn’t a constructive or helpful response on my part to the suggestion but I hope I have now explained further.