To ask why women financially dependent on men are viewed as morally superior to those dependent on the state?!

[Primarkismyonlyoption]

Just that really, my experience and something I see everywhere.
Having a baby on benefits? Irresponsible. Single mums? A drain on society raising kids without fathers who are growing up to be uncontrollable. A government document citing such women as raising the 'psychopaths of the future'. Women to blame for a cycle of poverty which never ends.
What scroungers. Lack of morals. Less so than married women whose husbands work. Why?
Why are women in relationships where men provide financially known as SAHMs but single mums are just that. Implying thay staying at home is only a morally acceptable choice if you have a partner. The single parents are pushed to find work by baby aged 2. Housework for them isnt seen as work at all but sitting on their arses all day.

Instead of the moral segregation of women based on their relationship status why can we not view their lives as equal in the case of any woman whom cannot be financially independent in their own right, and start to look at how more women can become independent of both men and the welfare state?
And to stop double standards as if mums hide what money they have in order to claim money for their kids they are done for benefit fraud.
If men do it by hiding capital in court for maintenence or divorce, the woman is still gets judged for having to live off benefits whilst men get off scot free and go on to impregnate more whomen whom may or may not stay together. Worse, imo, the judgement of women recieving welfare assistance is doubled if there are more than one father, the children are mixed race, the more children there are or the fact the woman dares to have a sexual relationship with another partner whom she cannot afford to live with because most men cannot or won't take financial responsibility for children who aren't theirs just because they love their mum. And why should they?
As it happens I had babies on benefits and have fucking grafted to get to where I am. I work equally hard as I did then but in a totally different way. Yet the difference in how I am treated is astounding.
AIBU to ask for your views on this and what can we do to change it?

I think one of the differences is in your OP where you talk about women who cannot be financially independent in their own right, many SAHP's could be and have been financially independent but have chosen for whatever reason to give this up to focus on other issues. It isn't unreasonable to surmise that if they ended up in a situation where an income was needed they would look to earn it.
There is always going to be a difference in a capitalist society between a family unit seen to be contributing money and a family unit seen to be taking it away. Why single mothers carry all the blame rather than the fathers is I imagine due to living in a patrichical society. Maybe women could stop tearing each other apart and focus on the role that men play in leaving mothers and children without adequate support.

Being a SAHP is a lifestyle choice. If you can't afford to be a SAHP without benefits you should look for work, whether you are part of a couple or a single parent.

The OP puts me in mind of a lot of the sort of commentary you read on Twitter from Trump supporters. The view that dependency of any sort is a moral crime.

It’s really interesting. I think we’re entering a new era where despite being richer than we’ve ever been, we’re all becoming more mean spirited.

It’s a sort of apocalyptic dog eat dog world view. Makes me feel 😔

"It’s supposed to be a prop up until you speedily make plans to become dependent"
What do you mean?

Sure, I could go back to work, but the portion of our income that would be eaten up in childcare it wouldn't be worth it, in our opinion.

you're not going back to work purely to pay for childcare, you would be going back to work to retain your earning power when you no longer need to be at home, to make sure you have a pension, and that if the worst happens you can look after yourself and DC - childcare would be paid out of the household income, not just yours

obviously if you want to be a SAH parent, then thats fine, but when people say its not worth it as all the income would be used for childcare they're wrong

Being a SAHP is a lifestyle choice. If you can't afford to be a SAHP without benefits you should look for work, whether you are part of a couple or a single parent

This ^^

If a woman doesn't want to work and wants to be kept by a man that's her choice to make and there's no one else to blame when it goes wrong.

Being kept by the state because you don't want to work or just do the odd few hours is totally different. Thats expecting others to pay for a lifestyle choice, often full time workers who would love to not have to work as well but have morals and responsibilities.

There's a huge difference between the two OP, surprised you couldn't figure that out without MN.

Good if depressing post @minifingerz.

And another thing.

Women are socially expected to find, catch and keep their man. (Vomit). So a woman who is a sahm is doing what society approves of, appropriate gender behaviour.

Maybe a single mother is viewed at a deep and unconscious level as a 'misbehaving' woman who must therefore have social disapproval

Just a thought.

Poor yorrick the flaw in that logic is that men hold more power. Men have no biological clock.

Most of the time, if you have kids with them without being married then they hold even more power. Strictly speaking they're legally obliged to support their kids, but they can fuck off without owing you anything.

I absolutely get the point about the biological clock, but at the moment there just isn't anything we can do about that. I do think technology will advance until egg freezing becomes much more feasible and affordable, and women will have a lot longer than they have now. But we're not there yet.

They earn more. They arent shamed for being single or pitied for being childless.

Totally, totally agree. It is utter shit. But it's a separate issue to insisting on marriage before kids if it would protect you (and it usually would, precisely because men tend to earn more and suffer less financially after kids).

Therefore women often end up backed in to a corner, biology/love made them have a baby but the man's lack of incentive to marry leaves them screwed.

It is a horrible, horrible decision to have to make. It really really is. But without the protection of marriage, women are, as we have seen, often totally screwed.

We need to somehow reverse the culture of women being left high and dry by not being married. Unfortunately the only way I can think of doing that is by more women insisting on it before kids, and that's far from a perfect solution. But I can't think of any other way to make it happen. (I'm not in favour of putting marital obligations on people who have not chosen to marry. Some people have excellent reasons not to want to marry, for example older people who want to make sure their estate passes to their kids, but they still want to be able to cohabit.)

Still in this day and age many women atill subscribe to patriarchal expectations of them as wives, mothers and employees

Yes and they are fortunate to have the choice to subscribe If they wish.

pooryorrick that's why opposite sex civil partnerships are a must imo.

Why in the world go and have children if you have no man

I had a man when I had children but I haven’t had one now for 10 years. I am constantly judged as scum. Some people have no issue saying it to my face. Why is that acceptable? I play my cards close to my chest. My life is my own business. I am not about to explain what may or may not have happened to justify being single, being a tax credit claimant, or anything else. You can sod right off.

But let’s be clear. I am a decent human being, a good mother and you have no fucking right to judge me.

Strictly speaking they're legally obliged to support their kids, but they can fuck off without owing you anything

Marriage doesn’t necessarily solve that problem. Although I walked away from divorce with something, I haven’t had a penny in 10 years.

StealthPolarBear - what I meant was that being a stay at home parent is a choice some people can make due to circumstances (Partner being a high enough earner) but like me, if that ends, you have to then work with what you have and make money yourself instead.

Example : Dad works, Mum stays at home, they split up and her income ends - she goes on benefits for a couple of weeks until she can get a job and support herself and kids.
Example 2: Dad works, Mum stays at home, they split up and her income ends - she goes on benefits and stays on benefits because she can.

The second just isn’t right, that’s not what benefits are supposed to be there for. It’s supposed to be there to help people not fall into poverty when they fall on bad times... not a way of life

pooryorrick that's why opposite sex civil partnerships are a must imo.

I'm not opposed to that at all but I don't know if it would solve this problem. Civil partnerships can't be dissolved on the grounds of adultery; the whole point of them was that they were for two people to share their assets but not in a context that assumed a sexual relationship. That's why gay rights activists (rightly) were not happy with it.

They were a somewhat craven attempt to give gay people the opportunity to legalise their relationships while still quite explicitly NOT being marriage. Because marriage was too good for same sex relationships.

Ditto oh really ditto me too

But what sort of dependence should they work towards?seems odd

Primarkismyonlyoption

Where have i asked people to fight?? Why is it a goady question it's bloody true!

Honey, please! 🤣

If you already believed it to be true, then there was no reason to start a thread in the first place except to instigate a row, while trying to force your beliefs on others. You'd have to be dumb as a box of tampons to think it was going to end any other way.

Yellow thanks but im not stupid I was asking peoples views. It isn't a black and white concept nor a lifestyle choice for many people. Yes people should work to keep themselves. I work bloody hard. It is the attitude that womens work at home is less respected if that woman is on benefits.
The woman is not financially paying in either scenario. Both do the sane. Only difference is that work is funded by a man or by the state.

Marriage doesn’t necessarily solve that problem.

No, true. It is absolutely not a perfect protection and I know a lot of divorced women who wish they had never married. I don't mean to sound as though it's some sort of magical solution. It's just that there are a hell of a lot of cases where it does protect women when they have children and I get concerned sometimes about how little people actually know about it.

The most egregious example I came across recently was in a thread about marriage where a young woman, pregnant with her first child, wanted her partner to marry her but he was refusing. But she was happy because he was allowing her to change her name (the prince!) and had convinced her with the ''we don't need a piece of paper to prove our love' bullshit.

Marriage isn't a piece of paper any more than a £50 note and it's not a certificate of twoo wuv either.

Not really what as that poster was referring to the op whereas you were referting to another thread entirely. Not going to discuss further

Yes, really. They were responding to the OP, I was responding to them with a comment relevant to their comment. Just like you are responding to people’s comments that have diverted from the OP.

You don’t need to discuss further; my original comment wasn’t even to you.

*I had a man when I had children but I haven’t had one now for 10 years. I am constantly judged as scum. Some people have no issue saying it to my face. Why is that acceptable? I play my cards close to my chest. My life is my own business. I am not about to explain what may or may not have happened to justify being single, being a tax credit claimant, or anything else. You can sod right off.

But let’s be clear. I am a decent human being, a good mother and you have no fucking right to judge me.*

👏
Me too Ohreally.

I've only been separated for 3 yrs though.

Many people look at the position of benefits as To those who judge, you have the choice to do the same. Why don't you? A lot of the time I suspect it is moral superiority of the 'if we all did that'...
But not everyone does. But you could. But you don't, because that would make you less than what you are now.
Is that right or is my perspective flawed?

emma
Thats twice you have referred to me as thick or stupid.
If that were the case fair enough but I'm not. Honey.

Primark, why does this bother you so much ? You sound so angry and outraged. Have you been on the receiving end of some judgmental remarks ?