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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be surprised Neville Southall’s article in Transwomen

14 replies

bambambini · 31/01/2018 08:36

Neville is really taking the trans community to his heart. If he can get it when he used to be homophobic, transphobic - then why can’t everyone else. A Trans positive article for a change.

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/neville-southall-lgbt/

OP posts:
OP posts:
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 31/01/2018 08:42

Gosh - footballer falling over himself to be sympathetic to other men (trans women) and not even mentioning women (trans men) - who’d have expected that!

MorrisZapp · 31/01/2018 08:43

The positive side for me is he asks 'what is a woman' and says that sport and insurance need to have a definitive answer.

The rest is interesting but I still have no idea why gay people and trans are now defined as being from the same movement.

Alisvolatpropiis · 31/01/2018 08:45

How lovely, a man telling women what it is to be a woman and that only trans women’s opinions on the subject matter.

Also - you can’t change biological sex. That is basic biology. Someone needs to tell Neville that.

Rebeccaslicker · 31/01/2018 08:46

He means well and there are some good points.

But the bit where a MAN is telling us what a woman is.... where he says "they are women".... not so much! How does he know? What he can say is, "I accept them as women." He can say, "everyone should accept them however they choose to live". He can say, "people who discriminate and put down transpeople are bigoted and wrong".

But he can't say what it is to be a woman.

MiMi78 · 31/01/2018 08:56

So another man supporting-
Other men pressurising women into sex with them. Cotton ceiling.
Other men taking over positions made for and to benefit women.
Other men's rights to be in women's safe spaces when we maybe in a state of undress.
Giving DV perps more access to their victims.
Bullying transsexuals as truscum.
Even if he hasn't written this, this is what the trans agenda means. Which means he can't be arsed to do much research instead of jumping on the bandwagon, or is thick as shit.
Same shit, different wrapper.

AnachronisticCorpse · 31/01/2018 09:02

So he’s equating wanting to be a footballer with wanting to be a woman?

Well, sure, for most men that actually holds water. I’d like to be an astronaut or a brain surgeon but it ain’t gonna happen.

But really you may as well say I want to be a unicorn. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE (currently) to change sex. It’s not an option for anybody and I’m sick of being told it is.

NotALabourMemberImAfraidLads · 31/01/2018 09:02

Why do people assume that those of us who oppose the proposed self-ID laws are ignorant and just haven't thought about it from the other point of view?

Like probably the majority of people who oppose this, I started out on the other side. I am (or was?) a member of the LGBT community, I know many trans people, have attended many talks on trans issues etc and at first, based on misinformation by the transactivists about who the 'opposition' were and what they were saying/doing to trans people, I was vehemently opposed to them. There were things going on in the community that didn't make sense and some behaviour by 'transwomen' which was problematic but I just brushed it to one side and didn't really think about it.

When I was first introduced directly to what 'the opposition' were saying (on Mumsnet), I immediately dismissed them as bigots and didn't really listen to what they were saying. The transactivists drew (flimsy) comparisons between trans rights and gay rights so, as a lesbian, when I encountered criticism of some aspects of transgenderism, I just automatically reacted angrily and dismissively to them because it felt personal. Also, I think because I didn't really have any answers to some of the things they were saying (e.g. how can you reject sex stereotypes while also say that a boy liking Barbie means they are really a girl), I couldn't really engage.

Eventually, somehow, I started to listen and then it all made (horrifying) sense and also tied in with some of things I had experienced or witnessed within the LGBT community but had decided to put to one side and not think about.

That's why I find the assumption that we are ignorant and need to open our minds so baffling. Although I have adjusted my opinions on a number of issues as I have learnt more, there is no issue where I have started out passionately on one side and have so completely changed my mind having listened to the arguments and the evidence. I can't say I did that willingly. I definitely didn't go into this with an open mind but the patient (and sometimes not so patient!) feminists on Mumsnet who have kept setting out their arguments in the face of ignorant people like me eventually won me over.

FlibbertyGiblets · 31/01/2018 09:04

He's very sensibly asked what is a 'woman'.
(use of 'woman' as opposed to woman is interesting)

Butterymuffin · 31/01/2018 09:05

I don't agree with all of this, but he does mean well, and he's quite right in his main point that no one should be abused for choosing to adopt a trans identity. He also picks up the role of men in this abuse:

Some men seem to look at them as some sort of sex object to be used and abused,

which is a welcome change from all the pieces that see women (feminists of the 'wrong' kind) as the source of abuse against trans people.

It does feel like he's heard the trans narrative and hasn't heard as much about concerns over self identity etc. I think he'd be receptive to worries about women's sport though, if people talked him through that. I don't see him as 'same shit, different wrapper'.

SweetheartNeckline · 31/01/2018 09:21

Sadly I am never surprised to hear a white, rich man dictating to women about how they've got it wrong and if they were only kinder and politer then it'd make life so much easier... for men.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/01/2018 09:41

Neville is a bit confused if he's trying to stop being homophobic, while he's also signing up to the trans activist agenda, as mainstream trans activism is really homophobic.

Plus, he's not being asked to give anything up, is he? He's offering to give women's resources, spaces and privacy up, not his own. That's not hard for anyone to do, is it?

Fromage · 31/01/2018 10:09

"Those who work in the sport or insurance industry need to start looking at a definitive description of male and female. "

We have definitive descriptions for these terms, they refer to one's sex chromosomes XX or XY. Surgery and medication cannot change these. No one in any industry needs to redefine either of these words.

But I agree, questioning how we define men and women is a fair point.

SweetheartNeckline · 31/01/2018 10:24

"Man" and "woman" could indeed change meaning from the current, almost universally understood "adult human male" and "adult human female" to be more akin to one's gender, a social construct largely based around stereotypes.

If that is going to happen, there is still a need for female and male sex-segregated safe spaces. And I have a feeling it isn't enough for many transactivists to be legally their acquired gender; they will still want access to the sex-segregated facilities designed for the opposite sex.

Stating that one sex class places another sex class at risk through violence, sexual abuse etc is not transphobic, it is an objective fact. Stating that, post-transition, trans-identified males still commit crimes at the rate of other males is not transphobic either. Stating that the reason why females are almost universally the oppressed sex, across geographical, cultural and religious boundaries, is due to their snaller size and ability to bear children is not transphobic, it is a fact.

I do not deny anyone's right to exist. I do not deny anyone's human rights. I defend my own sex class's right to safety, which at times requires sex segregation.

The irony is, trans-identified males have used women's facilities for years. The aggressive and homophobic trans movement we see at the moment is at least as damaging to them as it is to women.

Sadly, removing gatekeeping and enshrining this in law only endangers people; it will not make bigoted and violent men any more accepting of transpeople.

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