To think Fagin isn’t a bad man really.

[Duffmcstockings]

He is just a product of his environment, and considerably better than the people who run the workhouse.

Good singer too

Errr no I don't think he was a very nice man at all.

He was very wealthy but did nothing to share this wealth to help the lives of the street children who work for him, he doesn't care for the individual children at all really.

He beats both Oliver and the Artful Dodger and is indirectly but purposefully involved in the death of Nancy even though she protected him from the law.

I guess the musical/film version of him is portrayed as a bit more jovial but no, not a product of his environment I would say.

He made fingerless gloves cool.

Imagine how many old pairs would've been chucked in the bin if he hadn't started that trend.

I imagine you like the musical version of Fagin. Read the book. You won't like him much then!

Good singer too

He was a pimp. So pretty nasty really

He wasn't necessarily a fundamentally bad person, but an opportunist living in difficult circumstances in difficult times, who understood it was a dog eat dog world and he had tp look out for number one. No room for empathy in the game of survival.

In the book he ends up facing his just deserts, ie he's hanged. In the musical he has the chance to go on 'reviewing the situation'.

He was a wrong'un. Pimped poor Nancy out then left her to Bill Sykes (been rewatching Dickensian and Timothy Spall's interpretation is less endearing than Ron Moody's).

Sorry TV drama

I like musical Fagin.

In the book there's an entire chapter where he's sitting in jail waiting to be hanged, and it's all his thoughts haunting him. It's very dark.

I always liked him in the film - but then I have a soft spot for weasely opportunists with shades of grey morals (in fiction).

He's portrayed as a bit of a rogue in the musical.
In the book, he's a pimp, and not just of women. Those boys weren't just pickpockets.

I agree, a product of his environment, but not very nice either - at least in the book, more sympathetic character in Oliver!

Still better than the Mr Bumbles of this world, who actually think of themselves as good people. I doubt Fagin was delusional, whatever else he may have been.

I enjoyed “That’s Livin’ Alright” but has he done much since?

Good singer too

Did an actual lol at that

The book Fagin is the reason all the boys become Bill Sykes and the girls become Nancy. He is described as having done away with more than one person who crossed him - so a multi murderer. He shows no remorse before he us hanged. He is a terrible creature.

Film Fagin bears no resemblance.

He’s worse in the book, but those times were very tough if you weren’t born into wealth - not justifying his actions but with all the poverty i understand why people would use every resource they could to stay alive, even at the expense of others.

MrFluffle That was the the basis of most of Charles Dickens works. The poor rose out of their start in life like Oliver finding his long lost rich family or Pip becoming a gentleman. Miss Havisham burnt to death in her wedding dress.

erm ... he did a big heist, then deliberately grassed up the men who worked with him, stole all their money and gave the police enough info to make sure they were all hung. So - pretty effectively using them, stealing & killing them.
He killed children who said no to him.
He beat children.
He stole.
He pimped out children of both sexes.
He allowed/enabled Sykes to kill Nancy (and probably others before her).

But yeah, he's just a lovable rogue.

You've got to pick a pocket or twooooooooooo!

For those of us who never read the book (I had to read Great Expectations instead at school), there is a tendency to base our understanding of the character on the film Oliver! as portrayed by Ron Moody. I do gather that the character in the book was far darker.

Although the dark side is hinted at in the musical, when Nancy says she's been doing Fagin's dirty work since she was half Oliver's age. So he's not really a lovable rogue even in the musical.

There's also a touch of anti-Semitism in the portrayal of Fagin.

The musical character only touches on the depths of criminality and depravity of the original.

He gave the boys shelter when noone else would. In the film he's likeable, in the book it's very different.