DD and night time waking.

[AnachronisticCorpse]

DD is 13, 14 in a few months. She’s always been terrible at settling to sleep, her bedtime routine when younger used to take at least an hour. Theses days we have to both physically go in and say goodnight, cuddle, kiss goodnight and leave her side light on.

For the last while she has been waking the entire house in the middle of the night. Usually by coming in our room and turning the light on at just gone midnight to tell us she couldn’t sleep, sending me texts until I answer, calling out from her bed.

Last night took the biscuit. She clattered into our room at 3am, and stood in the doorway proclaiming loudly that she couldn’t sleep. She then rapidly became hysterical, and it all descended into bloody madness really. After about fifteen minutes she stopped hyperventilating and then demanded we both get up and go through the whole cuddle, kiss, goodnight rigmarole. We did, only so we could all go back to sleep, but we were both furious. She woke both her brothers as well. DH gets up at 5 for work.

I’m about to get her up for school and I just don’t know how to approach this. I feel that she’s well old enough to know this isn’t acceptable. I don’t know what she expects us to do, really.

She has lots of sleepovers, either here or at friends, and she sleeps with the light off then with no problems. I’m as sure as I can be that this isn’t an anxiety thing, rather a more selfish ‘I’m awake and want your attention’.

How would you deal with this? I’m sleep deprived and ratty so my instinct is to bollock her, ground her and take her phone (I do take her phone when she does her midnight texting but so far it hasn’t much helped). She tends to do it more when DS2 is in our bed which makes me wonder if it’s a jealousy thing, he sometimes sleeps in her bed but we try to limit this on school nights.

We’ve made her room as comfortable and soothing as possible, she has a double bed with lots of cosy throws and pillows, a nightlight, a table lamp, her door is left open with the landing light on. I’m at a loss.

Our youngest is 6 and I thought we should be well clear of sleepless nights.

Any advice? Am I being unreasonable to expect a 13yo to have more consideration for the other sleeping people in the house?

Am I being unreasonable to expect a 13yo to have more consideration for the other sleeping people in the house?

No YANBU. Assuming there are no SN or trauma which means she can’t control her behaviour. If there aren’t, there is no need at all for a 13 yo to flip an entire house up in the air in the middle of the night because she can’t sleep. You and your DH need sleep too.
Re the actual waking, can you take her to the doctor and see if they can help? I might be wrong but it’s two issues, one is that she can’t sleep, the other is that she chooses to come and demand your attention in the middle of the night because of this. There’s no need to be woken on a whim.

No SN, although we’ve actually been through the dx process for autism and sensory issues, mainly due to bad behaviour we thought could be attributed to ASD. Nothing diagnosable though.

She is very controlling and rigid, and picks fights like no one I’ve ever known, seriously she can start an argument in an empty room and will just needle and needle until she gets a reaction. She has always been the same and during the day I have become quite proficient at ‘handling’ her. That all goes out the window at 3am though. And the whole thing last night just felt like her trying to start a row.

I’m exhausted. Physically and mentally.

Wow

And I thought you couldn’t turn teensnoutnof bed for love nor money.

It sounds like jealousy on the surface of things. Has she ever slept through or is this a ‘new’ thing?

Is it also only when your DS is in bed with you?

She usually sleeps through. This used to happen about once every few weeks, but has now been a streak since Saturday night, with last night being the worst. It’s not just when Ds is in our bed, and it’s not every time he is.

She’s now stamping around the house shouting at me because she can’t find her trainers and her hair isn’t right. I’m hiding in the kitchen with my third coffee of the day trying to keep my eyes open.

How do you put up with that? I would flip my lid. She knows how rude she's being.

If I had reacted to her shouting it would have escalated. It works best to just completely ignore her. She left for school on time, which is the goal.

I really struggled with this when i was younger, when i was about 11 my mum put a tele in my room and then instead of wake her up i was allowed to put the tele on really quietly and that would distract me and id go back to sleep (this was the days before freeview though so at 3am there was the news, snooker and itv nightscreen, nothing i actually wanted to watch)

I think you may have to enforce a strict no phone and no light policy at night. Terrible behaviour from a thirteen year old with no SN.
How old are your other DCs?

I mean in the middle of the night. I wouldn't be getting up to settle a teenager that couldn't sleep. Maybe take her to the doctor and see if she can get something gentle to help her sleep.
But she is behaving really rudely towards you and your husband. That's not unusual with teenagers but I'm not sure it's right to be so accommodating.

@AnachronisticCorpse the diagnostic process is not friendly to females unfortunately, it may be worth seeking a second opinion if you feel it’s something you’re sure of.

Meantime for you

She has a tv, and a laptop and a phone and shelves full of books. Lots of options for if she’s awake other than waking everyone else up.

The boys are 6 and 15.

We basically manage her by using techniques as if she was on the spectrum. And ignoring the bad behaviour is the only thing that has ever worked, we used to have awful explosive rows back in the day when I rose to it. There are consequences but we find it best to enforce these when the dust has settled rather than in the moment. I’ll get an apology for this morning when she comes home, and we are going to have a big chat about last night.

The night time disturbances can’t go on.

notreally I was just going to say that.

How old was she when you went through the diagnostic process? It's not uncommon for autistic females to fly under the radar and mask by mimicking and learning the rules, until such point that life becomes too complex and they fall apart spectacularly. This is often around puberty/secondary school, or even in adulthood (I was diagnosed aged 29 and I have friends who were diagnosed in their 40s and 50s).

So it's definitely worth seeking a second opinion, especially if some time has passed since the original assessment.

I also had a lot of trouble sleeping as a teen. I was allowed TV (as a pp said, very boring in those days), or to listen to my radio/music, or I could read. Anything really that involved me staying quietly in my room and not disturbing others.

Having said that, around the time that I fell apart spectacularly (autistic burnout) I was late 20s and having anxiety attacks in the middle of the night, and I did wake my husband up, night after night. Sometimes unintentionally as the light from my phone disturbed him, sometimes intentionally because I was having yet another panic attack. I was helped immensely by medications, getting a diagnosis and then CBT (an adapted version of it, my therapist was wonderful and threw the rule book out in light of the fact that I am autistic, we concentrated on anxiety reducing techniques rather than thought processes).

So perhaps you could practice mindfulness with her or get some meditation CDs or audiobooks (I used to listen to these to get to sleep at night)?

By the way, I wouldn't use the fact that she sleeps at sleepovers to assume it's not anxiety- if she is autistic then by now she will be very aware of the fact that she is different to her peers and she could be hiding the fact that she is awake and anxious so as not to appear different or a 'baby' in front of her friends.

Remove her phone every night and make a reward chart with a goal for her to aim towards. Discuss with her in the daytime how her behaviour is affecting you.

She was between 7 and 9 when we were going for assessments. They all basically said the same, that she had traits but didn’t fit the diagnostic criteria.

Funnily enough I have often wondered about asd in myself, I have a myriad of Mh issues but I also tick most of the boxes on those online ‘women with autism’ checklists. I just don’t know if it’s worth putting dd through the whole process again. She’s definitely better than when she was younger, she used to be a little ball of rage and anxiety. As I say, I usually approach things with her these days as though she is on the spectrum, lots of gentle transitions and letting her blow out of her own meltdowns.

Mindfulness before bed is a good idea, I can do that with her. I really don’t know if we handled it well last night, me and DH were both pretty cross and it showed.

I was diagnosed at 35 and hadn’t seen the signs in DD despite DS1 and DS2 both being diagnosed.

Sounds like you’re doing everything right OP.

I really don’t know if we handled it well last night, me and DH were both pretty cross and it showed

And that’s ok too. It’s exhausting when you can’t get sleep, and even more frustrating when it feels like it’s done on a whim. It does her no harm to see that her actions are impacting you. I try my best to be calm Mum and not get frustrated but now and again they see it.

There's some long running support threads on here, in the 'mumsnetters with SN' topic. Might be worth a look if you suspect ASD in yourself. Many of us were diagnosed with anxiety, depression, bipolar and even personality disorders before our ASD diagnosis.

As someone diagnosed with multiple sleep disorders, I would suggest (based on my treatments/therapies/advice) a trial of no screen time for at least an hour before bedtime and during the night. Computer, tablet and phone screens emit a wavelength of light that disturbs sleep and worsens any problems that may be occurring. Same with tv - all recommendations are that they not be used, so perhaps encouraging reading, soft music, audio books, etc would help.

I don't have any experience with autism spectrum disorders or issues, so I apologise if these comments are not helpful in this instance, but these are some of the suggestions that have helped me.

DD2 (who has ASD) sometimes struggles with sleep and our rules are very clear.

She is allowed to read quietly in her room until she feels sleepy.
She is allowed to play music quietly.
Absolutely no electronics at all.
She is not allowed to disturb other people.
She is not allowed downsatirs (house alarm) so brings a bottle of water to bed just in case she needs a drink.
If she's upset she comes in and quietly wakes either her dad or I, not both.
She is allowed to wake one of us from 7.00 onwards, 6.00 in summer.

I think you need to clarify the rules for your daughter and take electronics away at night time.

DD2 currently take Melissa Dreams to help her go to sleep at night (but only when she feels she needs it).