Any child psychologists out there? What do you do with a badly behaved child that just doesn't care?

[BrightonMum36]

A close friend of mine is constantly in tears over her five year old daughter and I'm at a total loss as to what to suggest or how to help her. She's a lovely lady with two daughters, the two year old is an absolute joy, well behaved and happy. This makes me think the five year olds behaviour is nature driven, not nurture driven, as the two girls are complete opposites.
The five year old is constantly misbehaving. She doesn't ever do as she's told, she's rude, she hits out, runs off, throws things, vandalises the house and gets in trouble at school. The thing which worries me is that she's totally remorseless. When she's caught out or told off she simply laughs in her mums face and just doesn't care about being caught or being punished. She came for a play date at my house and poured my nail varnish all over the spare room. What we discovered it, she simply laughed and laughed and thought it was brilliant fun, despite how clearly upset I was and how embarrassed her mum was. It was awful.
That's when I realised I was at a loss as to what to suggest to her mum as my kid responds pretty well to appropriate consequences, so what happens when they don't?
Please don't think this is just an excuse to bash someone else's kid, it isn't, I do have a soft spot for this girl. She's funny, has character and is my daughters friend. I don't dislike her, this post is to find some ideas for my friend as to how to help her parent her as she is now desperate.
Thank you.

Ps I forgot say that apparently no consequences of any kind have any effect on her behaviour, either long term or short. My friend seems to have tried everything to no effect.

Difficult to tell without knowing them, but some parents don’t give children much good attention and positive reinforcement. So then children seek the attention with bad behaviour. A lot of punishing is just likely to make that a vicious circle so it’s important to build a positive relationship with the child.

I'm not a psychologist but something I'm trying out at the moment is 'time in'. All behaviour is a form of communication. It sounds like this girl is 'looking for a response' that mirrors her perception of being bad/naughty/trouble.
So when something goes wrong encourage her to do something with you/the mum. Little jobs to keep her focused and praise for helping be it making toast, helping to take out rubbish, collecting post, chopping veg. Something the adult needs to do and then chat about little stuff. Keep it positive
It won't have an immediate effect, think mimimum 6 weeks but this girl needs to be included not pushed away and rejected for her behaviour.

Gosh, that sounds very difficult for her mother. Whilst you have provided a vignette to help illustrate her behaviour, it's not enough to form a clinical assessment. That can't be done without seeing her.
I suggest her mother takes her to see a clinical or counselling psychologist that specialises in children (FYI- no such thing as a 'child psychologist' as a professional term).
She will probably have to pay though- she could try NHS but she will have to wait a looong time to be seen, CAMHS is so overloaded.
Good luck to your friend, the best thing you can do is be there for her to talk to which it sounds like you're doing already.

My DD was very similar, she has asd. I found emotions were pretty useless she also didn't care if she upset anyone. This may sound mean but I found taking her most treasured possession for short amounts of time worked, she is a teenager now so it's currently the wifi. I don't do long term punishments as when she has nothing to lose she escalates, so I start with 30 minutes. This initially escalated behaviour but once she got the hint it helped. I also tried to be very ott over Any positive and set up a rewards system, she tore it up many times but eventually again got the hint. With my DD control is a major issue so she never shows she is in the wrong or admits it as that would mean she lost control, if she upsets someone she escalates rather than apologising.

Watching thread with interest... I can't offer any advice though OP...

Elder child with 2 year old sibling - jealousy and attention seeking perhaps?

Has your friend considered trying lovebombing?

I’m no child psychologist but some of the traits you describe could be Pathological Demand Avoidance. What do the school say about the behaviour? My 5 yo DD is different. School picked things up in nursery and she’s entered reception with some support plan in place. This has made a big difference to her behaviour both at school and at home. School have never specifically said pathological demand avoidence to me but that she “has a heightened sense of fight or flight and they have to modify the language they use to communicate with her”.

Christ, sorry OP, went gabbling off without reading last bit about strategies.
Has the 5 year old always displayed this behaviour? When did it start?
What sanctions does the mother use? How does the child interact with her sibling and rest of family? How does she react if teachers tell her off? And has anyone asked her why she does it and how she's feeling?

What was she like before her sister was born?
What is she like at school?
How does she regard her younger sister?

She had 3 years of 100% parental attention and then suddenly she had competition, bad behavior often results in full on attention (any attention is better than no attention), this will be something she has learnt over the last few years, it's a difficult cycle to break out of because the younger child still requires a disproportionate amount of attention. Try suggesting your friend, designates specific time for just the two of them, also rewarding good behavior (even rewarding behavior that is just ordinary, but not bad), the time in (rather than time out) suggestion is a good one as well. She doesn't appear to care because she has got the attention she was seeking.

You love her. You might not like the naughty bits but you still love her.

You tell her when she is doing things right rather than only when she is doings things wrong.

You find out what motivates her. This may well be entirely different from her sibling. Rewards / sanctions will only work for her if they are motivating for her.

You keep a diary of behaviour to work out triggers. Are there sensory problems. Is it down to anxiety etc etc.

Try not to worry about the inappropriate reactions. it doesn't mean she is a psychopath just that she has not learnt how to respond appropriately and needs explicit teaching.

Thank you for the excellent and intelligent advice. I will pass it on.
Apparently she has always been like this, even before her sister was born. She's misbehaves at school too and is in trouble there a lot. She isn't particularly nice to her sister. It probably is a bit of jealousy but I get the impression she would be the same with or without her sister there.
Love bombing sounds like a good idea. As does the positive reinforcement.

I’m not a psychologist, just a SENCo but have been to consultation with educational psychologists regarding children’s behaviour.

The questions they always ask are:

What may be the cause of the behaviour? -Any specific triggers? Is it for attention?

What is the incentive for the child to behave? If she seemingly enjoys acting up then how can she be incentivised to stop? What ‘carrot’ can be dangled to reward good behaviour? Does the child understand what ‘good’ means? So, not just be good today and you will get X reward but do A, B and C for Y amount of time and you will get X reward.