Beyond the pale

[Reppin]

Can we all stop using this expression now?

[PricillaQueenOfTheDesert]

Columbine what was mean with my reply? The op has not yet been promoted to Head Of Language police .
So why the fuck does she think she has the right to tell me what expressions I can and can not use?
You’d do well to remember that offence is NEVER given only ever taken and to be honest I don’t care that someone thinks beyond the pale is rude or racist, if I want to say it I jolly well will.
If you want to hear some real nasty racist terms I suggest you google the lyrics to a song called White Noise by an Irish punk bank called Stiff Little Fingers.

[Bluntness100]

If they come to understand & to know how people affected feel, then yes it is racist to carry on

Sure, no one disagrees with that, but you actually have to be right about it’s origin to be affected, the point everyone is making is you and the op are not, as in this instance the origin of a pale is absolutely not the English and the Irish, a pale was a very common thing, used in many countries, in many contexts, and well before and after the English Irish. In fact it started well back into the 1300s or before to define settlements I think.

Again, it’s like the Berlin Wall, a wall is also a very common thing, which started well before the Berlin Wall and continues to this day, we all have walls, you can’t say that’s racist to use the word wall, like you can’t say it’s racist to refer to a pale.

And ps to the poster who corrected me on who built it, yes you’re right, my apologies.

[makeourfuture]

and to be honest I don’t care that someone thinks beyond the pale is rude or racist, if I want to say it I jolly well will.

Well there you go.

[BitOutOfPractice]

Well for starters Liv you have no idea who is or isn't Irish here anyway

And surely it's hard to keep even the flimsiest grasp on the moral high ground when you consider the phrase perfectly acceptable to apply to others whilst simultaneously taking offence on your own behalf - what does that make you?

In any case I think you've chosen the wrong hill to die on with this phrase. a. because the pale isn't just an Irish phenomenon and b. because the vast majority of people who use it have no idea what it means anyway, let alone that it can be applied to English repression of the Irish

[JustAnIdiot]

"offence is NEVER given only ever taken"

Pricilla - yes, absolutely.

Being easily offended is a popular hobby at the moment - competitive outrage really is a thing...

[Bluntness100]

This is nuts.

[WindyWindy]

Watch out though irl, one of the holy peacemakers on this thread will be there to report you to HR..

[fixthefreezerdavid]

I always thought it was something to do with jack and Jill

[PositivelyPERF]

😮😳 Sorry TANsplaining not transplaining. 😳

[Columbine1]

Are you aware of the existence of the Equalities & HR Commission?
& the Equalities Act 2010?

[Bluntness100]

Columbine, who are you asking and what’s it got to do with what a pale is?

[MmmmmmBop]

Pricilla I don't understand what point you're making about "White Noise"? Do you not understand the intention of the song? Do you also believe that Jonathan Swift really thought that eating Irish babies was the solution to the 'Famine'?

[TinselTwat]

I presume this is a TAAT?

[MmmmmmBop]

(Sorry, not the 1840s Famine, the poverty and hunger of the Irish in the 1700s)

[Columbine1]

Asking the thread in general
And anyone who thinks racism in all its forms is not an issue - wondering if they know eg about related legislation?

[LivLemler]

In any case I think you've chosen the wrong hill to die on with this phrase. a. because the pale isn't just an Irish phenomenon and b. because the vast majority of people who use it have no idea what it means anyway, let alone that it can be applied to English repression of the Irish

I'm not choosing this hill to die on at all. I've said I understand there is more than one meaning of the word pale. I've just explained why I personally don't like it. It's by no means the worst that I read on here. I'm just so fucking tired ATM. Like I said, it's been a long few weeks.

[BitOutOfPractice]

Well I'm sorry you're feeling tired Liv. I think a lot of us are feeling the strain right now.

But if you don't like it, don't use it would be my advice!

[Damnthatonestaken]

Offense is only taken
Lots of people offended by others offense

[ScrommidgeClaryAndSpunt]

I'm Irish (albeit have lived in England pretty much all my life). I don't find this phrase offensive in the slightest and neither to my knowledge does anyone in my family; indeed we use it ourselves sometimes.

I think our efforts as a society would be far better directed in addressing actual prejudice and inequality, rather than getting illiberal and prescriptive about inconsequential figures of speech.

[Bluntness100]

And anyone who thinks racism in all its forms is not an issue - wondering if they know eg about related legislation

Who the hell doesn’t think racism isn’t an issue? No one posted that. But you cannot take a general term like a pale or a wall or anything of that ilk and decide its racist.

We all want to stamp out racism, but it’s a huge stretch to say this is it.

[curryforbreakfast]

No, we can't stop using a perfectly good expression, thank you. It is very common in Ireland, where it actually originates.
On whose behalf are you offended?

[RoseWhiteTips]

Etymology

From pale (“jurisdiction of an authority, territory under an authority's jurisdiction”), suggesting that anything outside the authority's jurisdiction was uncivilized. The phrase was in use by the mid-17th century, and may be a reference to the general sense of boundary, but is often understood to refer specifically to the English Pale in Ireland. In the nominally English territory of Ireland, only the Pale fell genuinely under the authority of English law, hence the terms within the pale and beyond the pale. The boundary of the Ashdown Forest (a royal hunting forest) was also known as the Pale, consisting of a paled fence and a ditch inside, to allow deer to jump in, but not back out.

The Pale took a capital letter previously. The derivation is Irish.

It is nothing whatsoever to do with skin colour. Fgs

[LivLemler]

Who said it had anything to do with skin colour?

[SilverySurfer]

The Pale took a capital letter previously. The derivation is Irish

Not according to this:

"The phrase itself originated later than that. The first printed reference comes from 1657 in John Harington's lyric poem The History of Polindor and Flostella. In that work, the character Ortheris withdraws with his beloved to a country lodge for 'quiet, calm and ease', but they later venture further:

Both Dove-like roved forth beyond the pale to planted Myrtle-walk.

Such recklessness rarely meets with a good end in 17th century verse and before long the lovers are attacked by armed men with 'many a dire killing thrust'. The message is clear - 'if there is a pale, decent people stay inside it', which conveys exactly the figurative meaning of the phrase as it is used today."

[MiraiDevant]

Really OP - stupidity indeed.
Pale is an old word for fence as has been explained by many posters

If I say my toddler's behaviour is beyond the pale how can that possibly be racist?? Yet you would assume that (whatever race or colour I am??) I am a racist??

Maybe you should do some advanced linguistics, some serious history, some language study including medieval and ancient languages and then decide which words and expressions we are and are not allowed to use.
When you have issued a list with appropriate punishments for the heinous crime of using these words then let us all know; we'll be sooo grateful.