Beyond the pale

[Reppin]

Can we all stop using this expression now?

[WindyWindy]

Pale was likely more general than that. The Pale of Calais is another early example.

[IrkThePurist]

I think its possible 2 groups developed the saying independantly for their own reasons.

I dont think its reasonable to try to ban it.

[gingergenius]

OP, you're a little misguided on this.

[Doingthebattybat]

I had no idea till this thread that The Jewish Pale Of settlement wasn’t the only Pale. Will be looking up the Irish Pale which is the origin of the phrase.

I’m Jewish. Other then my grandparents and some aunts and uncles, who managed to get to the UK, most of my family were killed when the ghetto they lived in in Lithuania was completely destroyed. I can’t say however that the phrase ‘Beyond the pale’ offends me though.
As a Jew there are things that upset and offend me far more than this phrase.

[curryforbreakfast]

Beyond the Pale is a Jewish saying. The Pale was a Jewish settlement in Russia where there was a huge massacre

No, that is a separate and later origin coming from the pale of settlement. The english phrase beyond the pale refers to the Irish pale specifically, which predates your usage by centuries.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Irk there are about four hundred years between the English and Russian Pale... it has a lot of meanings, all based on being outside is less safe than being inside!

And it isn't a Celtic word!

[Battleax]

No seasons. I did think we might be in for a second round but nothing so far. Just as well, it can get repetitive

[Seasonseatings]

Has anyone got snow?

[IrkThePurist]

Beyond the Pale is a Jewish saying. The Pale was a Jewish settlement in Russia where there was a huge massacre.
Thats why it means 'something that is worse than usually bad'.The Pale was bad; beyond the Pale is worse.

Why would they use a Celtic name for a Jewish radio show?
www.beyondthepale.org/

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Probably, even if that expression wasn't used. Anyone not inside was beyond the safety of the palisades.

In any part of history... though the English / Dublin Pale is the first recorded as being called that. There may have been many others, but, much as usual, we cocky English empire builders seem to have got there first...possibly because we wrote the appropriate history book

Don't know about Scotland - though the Wiki Thing tells me that there is a replica fortified village in Duncarron, so they must have had them too!

[grannytomine]

I haven't read the full thread but I always understood it to mean the area where Gaelic was spoken, so only English inside the pale, beyond the pale you could speak Gaelic.

[BeyondAssignation]

So I know of the pale of Calais and the Irish version. But I'm curious and wonder if anyone can answer...

Was the area outside of offas dyke considered "beyond the pale"? Or various parts of wales depending on where in history we are?

How about Scotland?

[SisyphusDad]

This really is a double plus ungood discussion.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

So are books about all sorts of odd historical stuff.

If that was aimed at my post I feel the need to say that didn't use the wiki thing.... and I've been to the Ashdown Pale, read part of the C17th Poem (it was just a bit stultifying). The others are just general knowledge, if you like massing a lot if useless knowledge, and I do!

[RoseWhiteTips]

Or even, were the discussion to take yet another turn, pails!

[RoseWhiteTips]

Or pales.

[RoseWhiteTips]

Isn’t wiki helpful for those who need to list Pales...

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

It does, doesn't it?

I shall park it for the next time... there is always a next time!

Or there was last time I was here a lot. Maybe things have changed!

[BlazingPaddles]

Look like your popcorn will got to waste.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Strange You'll get shot!

None of the Ever Angry seem to be able to accept that nigg a r has a totally different root!

[grabs the popcorn]

[Iwanttobe8stoneagain]

Dear lord - some people seriously need to get a grip. It doesn’t matter. Save your anger Op for the perpetrators of domestic violence or something which is actually relevant to modern day living

[StrangeLookingParasite]

PossibLY thank you autocorrect.

[StrangeLookingParasite]

The op is possible also someone who gets themselves in a knot about niggardly, too.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

But, as many have said, there have been many Pales, with a capital P... the one at Ashdown Forest is the Pale; The Pale of Settlement, Russian; Pale of Dublin and the Pale of Calais.

First used in print in C17th, an ill fated love story, I think!

The Irish Pale is the first that we know about, but doesn't mean it's pejorative against the Irish... it just means that going outside the palings meant you were leaving the area where rules and institutions of English society held!

Not really all that nasty!! Nothing really to get het up about.

[LolitaLempicka]

The OP states it is because it refers to The Pale in Ireland, not skin colour. Who would think it refers to skin colour?