WhoIBU?

[saltandvinegarcrisps1]

Was going to post this in teenagers but think I will get more opinions here – and robust ones!
I want to add this caveat before I tell the story – I am not over invested in this – I don’t give an opinion unless specifically asked and I have told the parties involved to sort it amongst themselves and have tried to give multiple perspectives to both DC. All the information I know has been told to me by them without prompting from me.
DS is 20, DD is 17 and a half, DS’s friend (J) has just turned 19. DS is gentle soul, doesn’t like paryting, very sensitive, strong moral compass, a big worrier – DD is the opposite – very sociable, strong willed, independent, a good person but definitely puts herself first. J knows many of DD and her friends/their boyfriends and they socialise together/attend the same parties – DS doesn’t attend as he is not into parties/a bit socially awkward. DD and J copped off with each other two weeks ago – this was after conversation that DS had with J and another friend who had said DD was “hot” – DS said to friends that they were not to have anything to do with DD in that way.
So situation now is that DS has fallen out with J as J initially denied kissing DD. DS has told me he “feels sick” at the thought of them together and that J will (in DS’ opinion) “just use her” and DD will be talked about by the boys in his group.

J has apologised (not sure if its for lying for for the kissing) by text, asked to meet with DS to discuss and generally tried to make amends. J now wants to take DD to cinema, DD wants to go but doesn’t think she can as it will cause further trouble. But they are meeting “in secret” (ie meeting up and turning off snapchat location no no-one can see they are together) and clearly fancy each other.
I have given the following perspectives to both DC in various guises;
-J was wrong to lie to DS
-Its not up to DS to say who DD can/cannot go out with
-I can understand DS’ feeling a bit weird about it but to feel sick is over the top
-If it goes pear shaped with J, its DD’s “mistake” to make
-Said to DS – if they are “denied”, it will just make it all the more exciting etc
The last word I’ve said is sort it out amongst yourselves/talk to each other – although they are still asking my opinions – I am trying to stay neutral. So mumsnetters – WIBU?

Your DS is being unreasonable. I understand his reservations but your DD's life is her own as is his friends.

I think you've got it spot on.

Totally normal and understandable issue but DS ibu. He'll have to learn to accept it

My dc all made an agreement as they were growing up that sibling friends were off limits. Now 28,25,23 and its worked well!!

You have it spot on I agree.

Very same situation happened to friends of mine. The DD and J of our lot are now married with 4 kids, the J still takes a lot of stick about it (mostly good humoured but I suspect there is still a bit of 'thats my sister' resentment lurking). All worked out well in the end!

I agree with the other posters. In this situation stay neutral but still give your wise opinion, just as you have done.

You are in an unfortunate position of being thought of as 'wrong' no matter what you do. (except by MN )

Ds is bu.

You have analysed the scenario perfectly ( probably with the benefit of age, wisdom and experience that they all currently lack)

You'll have to smile and nod until it all blows over ( including the probable fall out and I told you sos)

thanks all - I think DS is BU - but he's such a lovely lad and I can totally see his point - but he does hold some "traditional" views about women that I am trying to gently challenge. He did say that if they were older/it was "serious" he would be happy with it - I think he's worried she will become the topic of salacious chat among his friends.

You've got it right OP.

Also happened in my group of friends. The DD and J are now married and expecting their first DC.

J did wait until he had the Atlantic between him and DS before he a) asked the DD out (which went down like a lead balloon) and b) to propose (which resulted in tears of happiness).

They all live nearby now and are very close. It can work out

DS is BU. I was the DD, I snogged all 3 of my brothers best mates (over a 3 or 4 year period!) it did me no harm. They were nice boys. We are all now married to other people. I still see them and they all still take the piss out of me

On the one hand, it s very sweet of your DS to clearly care so much about your DD's social, physical and mental well-being.

On the other hand, his sister is damn near 18. She can go out with J if it's what she and J want. She sounds, even from what little you've said, more than capable of handling herself.

Sisters will always be like this, in my experience - older brothers tend to prefer to think their little sisters are not doing anything remotely salacious. I'd keep doing what you're doing - remind DS that he is not his sister's keeper and his sister is old enough to make her own decisions but otherwise keep out of it.

It's good for his development anyway, because he does need to recognise and accept that she isn't a baby anymore and can make her choices without needing his approval.

Thanks - its great to get neutral opinions. I am more protective of DS as he is not the most resilient and doesn't cope well with "real world" issues so I need to give my self checks or else my default position would be to do whatever made DS' life better. To think I thought it was hard and they were toddlers fighting over a toy!

I agree with PP. I'm sure your DS has good intentions, but he really has no place to interfere/dictate who either J or DD date. And as you have said this will only make it more exciting if forbidden.
The only thing I'd query is your DS saying J would "use" DD. Does he actually have any real reason to believe this? (ie is J a bit of a knob?) If that's the case, he still can't do anything, but might be worth him talking to your DD - after that it's up to her.

Your DS is worried that his sister will be talked about salaciously?
He cannot have it that his sister is "protected" from this shite and all other women are "fair game" to discuss.

Tell DS that he needs to get some new friends if the only way they talk about women is in a derogatory way! Every women any of them kiss/date/have sex with is someone else's sister or daughter - they deserve respect. If he fears how his friends may discuss his sister he needs to pull them up - and do the same about similar conversations about other women. Yep. Or get new friends.

He also needs to recognise that if this situation between J and DD does lead to salacious lad-talk about his sister between the rest if the group, then the problem is in the misogyny the rest of these teenagers have learned, not in the behaviour of the people being gossiped about. See if you can help him develop ways to challenge that kind of casual sexism - not only when it is his sister but when it us any woman.

You are spot on. My friend is married to my brother and they started dating when we were teenagers!

If he's worried about gossip, then he needs to challenge his 'friends' not your DD.

Something and Icen - I've had that talk with him. Unfortunately it's rife - he is so not part of the lad culture which is why he rarely socialises. I agree with your points but also that it's unrealistic to expect them all to have that level of insight at their stage of development. If he had the social skills / assertiveness to challenge he wouldn't be a hermit but sadly not everyone is made that way and they need support to develop these skills rather than just "find new friends " . It's not all the group talk about but they do discuss who is hot/Not etc which I don't see as unusual/ a problem.

SOP for human beings.

DS and J should probably fight a duel.

Ethyl - this makes me laugh - DS once got "challenged" by a boy in school (aged about 8) and he came running home asking me how he should fight him - like a ninja or like Super Ted!!

Firstly they are your children so not really sure why you don't feel its anything for you to be innvested in!

Secondly, I read from this that DS is fully aware of some misogynistic/dirty/cruel behaviour and chat from his friend J and that is what is upsetting him about J the pig going out with his sister.

Suggest you sit both down and tell DS to tell DD the bitter truth about what J is like when she is not there, and if she still wants to run the risk of going out with him then at least DS's conscience is clear.

Kimmy - I meant over invested as in getting too involved as if it was my problem to own. I wouldn't say J or any if them were pigs - from what DS has told me it's more chat along the lines of "X looked hot tonight/ Y is decent (apparently "decent" now means brilliant) / I fancy Z etc. DD and her friends do the same about who they think is decent/ gross etc. They are all late teens but we are typical middle class WASP community and they are still quite immature in many ways. DS hasn't told me anything to suggest J is anything more than a young lad developing his interest in the opposite sex and I don't have any concerns. DS has broken friendships before over the other boys behaviour (watching unsavoury videos online) so I am confident that J is a good lad or DS would not have a friendship with him at all. The issue is that J denied the missing to DS and that DS feels "yuk" about his sister and friend going out together.

Denied the kissing

I wonder that DS might be worried that if DD/J DO get together then split up then it could affect their friendship and the group or that he could 'lose' J to DD? Maybe J needs to sit him down, explain that he really likes DS and will treat her nicely but if they were to split then it would not affect their friendship/he will not drop DS for DD.