To be shocked that Tories have voted animals can't feel pain?

[brasty]

The Tory Government has outdone itself when it comes to neglecting animal rights this week – by voting that all animals (apart from humans, of course) have no emotions or feelings, including the ability to feel pain.

"Remember all that campaigning against the badger cull and May’s attempt to bring back fox-hunting? It was probably all a waste. As the Government begins to shape the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, it has taken a vote to scrap EU legislation that sees non-human animals as sentient beings. Once we leave the EU in 2019, it’s not only badgers and foxes that will be threatened by this change in law, but all animals that aren’t pets. So basically all animals that it will be profitable to exploit.

This vote comes in contrast to extensive scientific evidence that shows that other animals do have feelings and emotions, some even stronger than ours."

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html

Thank you, Veterinari. That is a nuance I had missed.

Grouchy, I've read a bit of the debate, and it quickly starts to look at broader environmental issues. So I'm guessing that since the 2006 legislation refers only to domestics, that the EU statement, (which we helped to put together) can be used to cover the welfare of all animals, until such time as new UK environmental legislation is drawn up. It does seem pretty complicated, and I wonder what the harm would have been to leave it in for now? Ha! must go, or no-one's getting fed tonight!

Veterinari Where the 2006 Act refers to "animals" its explanatory notes state that this means vertebrates. Domesticated animals are referred to as "protected animals", though it is true that most of the rules relate solely to them. There are sections on pest control.

I wonder whether this section of the Act would protect animals coming in from overseas. And perhaps any leaving our ports.

mardy Yes, it doesn't seem to really be worth it, unless Veterinari's points about future trade deals are the reason. (And that seems likely, considering how much of a push the US will make to change their trade deals with the UK.)

Grouchy

Nope the AWA only applies to vertebrate animals within the UK. Once they’re handed over to a foreign ‘keeper’ and transported to another country we have no jurisdiction in how they might be transported or slaughtered.

People used to get upset about live exports from the UK in the 1980s. With the exception if Ramsgate (iirc) all uk ports stopped live export to the EU after implementation of the EU transport Directive - it became non-cost-effective.

Live transport to USA, China, India etc will however be perfectly possible once we sign those trade deals

I hope public pressure will encourage them to legislate against live shipment but I won't hold my breath. There's no decent reason for it to happen these days (and it has been 150 years or so since frozen shipments have been possible).

Response from TM today:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42083452/pmqs-bruce-asks-may-about-looking-after-animal-welfare

The salient word used in TM's speech is "Sentient". Sentient means able to perceive or feel things.

OP which part of TM's speech did you perceive her to mean that "Animals have no emotions or the ability to feel pain"??

OP which part of TM's speech did you perceive her to mean that "Animals have no emotions or the ability to feel pain"??

Umm. Well Op isn’t referring to TM’s speech but to the recent rejection of article 13 (which confers responsibility to safeguard animal welfare in trade and Research policy, recognising that’s animal’s are sentient). Rejecting sentience is equivalent to rejecting the capacity for animal’s to feel. It’s true that MPs haven’t said they believe this - they all seem to accept that Animals can suffer, they simply don’t want to put safeguards in place to ensure good animal welfare in future trade policy.

www.bva.co.uk/news-campaigns-and-policy/bva-community/bva-blog/the-politics-of-animal-sentience/

Written response released:

www.gov.uk/government/news/environment-secretary-confirms-sentience-of-animals-will-continue-to-be-recognised-and-protections-strengthened-when-we-leave-the-eu

Guess we'll have to wait until next year to see what the changes will be.

The Independent is such a scummy fake news rag.

Not the first fake news from these lying cunts.

Anyone remember their UK bans female pleasure in porn fake news?

Fucking lying scumbag bastards.

"Yes, Grouchy, but the tories voted to have the clause referring to sentience removed. This was not an attempt to increase legislation. Lucas was arguing for having the legislation stand. Why don't the Tories or DUP, support the clause remaining, while all other MP's do?"

This is basic party business. The Tories and the DUP are the government, their job is to pass legislation, in particular on Brexit, the opposition's job is to undermine it and bring them down.

@brasty do not feel that you are silly or daft or whatever hun. I was 'taken in' too by the media frenzy. I am so glad to have stumbled on this thread and discovered the story has been misrepresented.

I am looking into it a lot more now.

Thanks to all the knowledgeable people on this thread.

Of course not PeiPeiPing, OP won't be back now, muh evil Tories is the only narrative.

I expect OP to make wild accusations about anyone not agreeing with her politically being fooled by the right wing media though, which I see she's done recently..

It appears the Independent has backtracked on its original story...

www.independent.co.uk/environment/animal-sentience-brexit-vote-caroline-lucas-michael-gove-truth-fact-argument-a8072071.html

I'm obviously not linking to my personal FB but even I can see the statement put out by the conservatives saying this is all bullsht - but as ever people want* to believe it and run with mistruths.

What do you expect from this lot? If they don't care about hungry children then why would they about animals?

Badeger cull has just been rolled out to another 30 counties, in case anyone's interested. Despite the fact that there is no evidence to show its working (very hard to get any info out of DEFRA).

It's working out at about 6.5k to cull a badger versus £280 to vaccinate it btw. A good money making machine for someone.

That's awful, Barbarian. Do you have a link? Can't find anything decent on it so far.

Yes they've kept it very quiet.

Can't do clicky links but if you google "the wildlife trusts" and search for "badger cull" on their website its all on there.

Hi - thanks to those more knowledgeable on this issue who have helped the rest of us understand it. I've just read the Ministerial statement and want to check my understanding of the situation is correct. Is Gove saying that to maintain the level of animal welfare protection we currently have under EU legislation after we leave the EU, it will be necessary to enact future domestic legislation, i.e. so admitting existing domestic legislation will not afford the same level of protection as afforded under current EU law? (so not rejecting the principle but just saying that the EU Withdrawal bill is not the right place for it). Is that correct?

And if so, does that not mean that there will be a time gap after we leave the EU where animals are not afforded the same legal protection they are now? And there is risk that this could go on for some time given difficulties of getting bills through parliament?

And why was the EU Withdrawal bill not the right place for this safeguard? (not a lawyer so appreciate there may be very good reasons why not, but would like to understand them)